On the futility of evidence-based apologetics

[Tone]

Right, but my point is that *anything* can be considered correspondence, which makes its appearance meaningless. What kind of result would indicate that God isn’t hearing people’s prayers?

Chaos?

 

[gaara4158]

Chaos?

Why couldn’t chaos be explained by some unknowable design of God?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It’s not so much that I prefer the rut I’m running in, it’s just psychologically very difficult for me to even consider anything else. I wouldn’t be so bold as to say I’m being more epistemically virtuous this way, I’m just being honest. If there’s nowhere to go from here, that’s a shame, because the other things you hinted at seemed intriguing. We can pick the PineCreek video back up whenever you’re ready.

I appreciate your honesty on how you feel about this epistemology "stuff," and I wasn't implying there isn't anywhere we can go from here. However, it seems to me that if you're admitting to a general disposition desperately in 'need' of direct empirical demonstration from God [like Doubting Thomas did], and if your present level of motivation to explore alternatives is that low, then there may be little practical reason to carry on this conversation. Of course, this isn't to say we can't just chit-chat about the strengths and deficiencies which exist in the PineCreek video ...

I'll tell you what. Let's let this whole thing rest until later this month, and then we'll see if we want to pick it up again.

 

[Tone]

Why couldn’t chaos be explained by some unknowable design of God?

The idea is oxymoronic...He is the author of order itself.

 

[gaara4158]

The idea is oxymoronic...He is the author of order itself.

Ok, so if we observe chaos anywhere, that would indicate that God did not impose that chaos?

 

[gaara4158]

I appreciate your honesty on how you feel about this epistemology "stuff," and I wasn't implying there isn't anywhere we can go from here. However, it seems to me that if you're admitting to a general disposition desperately in 'need' of direct empirical demonstration from God [like Doubting Thomas did], and if your present level of motivation to explore alternatives is that low, then there may be little practical reason to carry on this conversation. Of course, this isn't to say we can't just chit-chat about the strengths and deficiencies which exist in the PineCreek video ...

I'll tell you what. Let's let this whole thing rest until later this month, and then we'll see if we want to pick it up again.

I’m always willing to hear out the alternatives, I just can’t really wrap my head around the idea of actually applying those alternatives myself.

 

[Tone]

Ok, so if we observe chaos anywhere, that would indicate that God did not impose that chaos?

Probably.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I’m always willing to hear out the alternatives, I just can’t really wrap my head around the idea of actually applying those alternatives myself.

I think that with this comment, you've just added a "C)" option to the A) and B) options you've mentioned in your OP.

 

[Tone]

Ok, so if we observe chaos anywhere, that would indicate that God did not impose that chaos?

Chaos is incompatible with the existence of God...do we have it?

 

[gaara4158]

Chaos is incompatible with the existence of God...do we have it?

I guess you’d have to define chaos, and what it would look like. How would we recognize it?

 

[Tone]

I guess you’d have to define chaos, and what it would look like. How would we recognize it?

Well let's stick with prayer. If prayer wasn't real and effective, there would be total disorder (chaos).

cha·os
/ˈkāˌäs/
noun

1. complete disorder and confusion.
   "snow caused chaos in the region"
   synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, madness, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, furor, frenzy, uproar, hue and cry, babel, hurly-burly;

(Google search)

Because, the very nature of prayer is to restore any slippage of order.

 

[Tone]

So, if everybody on earth ceased praying, we would observe a rise in disorder.

*Or even if we can identify certain geographical regions on earth where unpraying athiests abound, we should be able to detect more disorder.

**Then again, maybe not, since they are probably being prayed for by believers.

 

[gaara4158]

So, if everybody on earth ceased praying, we would observe a rise in disorder.

But you just said chaos was incompatible with God’s existence. Now you’re saying that some chaos actually exists?

 

[Tone]

But you just said chaos was incompatible with God’s existence. Now you’re saying that some chaos actually exists?

Chaos defined as complete/total disorder. No, there is no total disorder.

 

[gaara4158]

I think that with this comment, you've just added a "C)" option to the A) and B) options you've mentioned in your OP.

Shall we flatter ourselves and say we managed to be the exception?

 

[gaara4158]

Chaos defined as complete/total disorder. No, there is no total disorder.

If total disorder is the case, falsifiability becomes impossible itself, doesn’t it?

 

[Tone]

If total disorder is the case, falsifiability becomes impossible itself, doesn’t it?

Yeah, so see, prayer works!

 

[gaara4158]

Yeah, so see, prayer works!

Not when prayer needs to be falsifiable, and the conditions under which it would be undermine falsifiability itself. That makes it not falsifiable still.

 

[Tone]

Not when prayer needs to be falsifiable, and the conditions under which it would be undermine falsifiability itself. That makes it not falsifiable still.

The conditions would be the absence of humans on earth...so, without anybody here to think about falsifiability...would it be here? I say yes, since it relies on consciousness, which we already have to take for granted.

Yes, things like consciousness are among the necessary assumptions we make in order to function.

*So we assume that there is consciousness left to falsify the findings.

 

[Tone]

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