(Anonymous Christian) writes:
"Does being able to recognize a temptation point to a lack of virtue? In other words: is susceptibility to temptation a sign that a person is lacking in virtue? Can temptation never enter the head of the truly virtuous person, because they wouldn't even recognize it? Or does virtue and moral strength of character show itself precisely in the face of temptation - because then you can make a conscious choice against adversity "
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V writes:
"A temptation is an act that looks appealing to an individual. It is usually used to describe acts with negative connotations and as such, tends to lead a person to regret such actions as a result of guilt."
[URL="http://removed"]http:// [/URL]removed
Good topic.
I sense you seek perfection though, which smacks of the pride disease...another pitfall of human imperfection.
You seek to be 'perfectly virtuous' and 'never have temptation' enter you mind?
No such thing as perfection when it comes to humans.
Even if we are more perfect than not when young, as our minds age we sometime lose some of this perfection with debilitating mental capacities.
I find it is good to 'look for direction and forget perfection' if we wish to be at peace with this subject.
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul." The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our practice.
Perfection is a journey I take and direction I head in - but I never arrive at in life.
Perfection is the nature of gods ~ Imperfection is the nature of humans.
We can see this with logic.
What is logical is not always practical when it comes to humans...is it?
Despite this fact, we can all do better if we try at perfecting inner peace within and with all.
But before we can get into a discussion of this subject in depth. We must note that 'virtue' and 'temptation' differs around the globe.
In addition, many of 'temptations' are man made and must be implanted by man through study before they can be recognized as taboo. Even then, within the same groups, the exact same taboos may change as allowable behavior after time passes.
Evil deeds are not universally evil deeds it seems.
For instance. The age of consent for sexual intercourse varies in the US from age 14 to age 18 depending on which state your in.
One state you are fine with your sex, step over the border and have sex at the wrong age you are in jail for eons.
In other countries it varies even further.
http:// removed
Who is right? Who has the virtue?
Well, what does 'natural law' say on the subject?
When a girl starts menstruating she is ready for sex it seems.
So what is virtuous to one may not be virtuous to all.
Even going back to the 'Good Book', what was OK then would land you in jail many times for such behavior now.
But speaking in general terms most can agree about good and bad virtues if they give it some thought. The problem is people act without thinking many at time, so 'without thought' is where the trouble starts.
You hit the nail on the head when you wrote:
"Or does virtue and moral strength of character show itself precisely in the face of temptation - because then you can make a conscious choice against adversity"
Which is echoed in what a Hindu sage once told me:
"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."
Some people get confused when the question of anger or temptation pops up in their head and beat themselves for 'still experiencing' these emotions thinking they should be a 'perfectly spiritual individual' and above such lowly emotions as getting angry or being tempted. They think they can perfect their lives and wipe out natural law with one blow called spirituality.
Due to the diversity of thought we humans are capable of we have all sorts of thoughts and emotions that pop up in our heads. Without this ability we could not think as we do...we do not think in a vacuum.
But, just because thoughts or emotions pop up in our heads the choice is ours alone whether we foster and build on any particular thought or emotion.
Spirituality does not eliminate such thoughts - it just helps decide what we do with them.
But, as was noted earlier. Just as virtues varies around the globe, so spiritual studies.
For instance Buddhist monks suggest you picture the sexually enticing women in more basic disgusting 'human' forms such a pus, feces, mucus, vomit. Or look deeper within them to see their organs such as liver, intestines or lungs as help with countering sexual thoughts.
On another hand, tantrics make sex their god so to speak and put much effort in combining the spiritual realm with sex.
So who really has the virtue?
The sexless monk trying to escape natural thoughts through unnatural means or the sex based tantric practitioner whose spiritual world revolves around sex?
Authenticity may shed some light on where the virtue resides. The study of philosophy that deals with developing virtue stems back to the early Greek philosophers. Virtue can be defined as 'excellence of the soul' or moral excellence.
Although the Greeks thought of 'soul and form' in different terms than say Christians think of soul. For example, the soul of an eye would be its ability to 'see' and whether this ability was good or bad would decide whether the soul of an eye had 'virtue' or excellence.
The concept of understanding virtue can be told in a story of the 'Ring of Gyges' or 'Myth of Gyges'.
This story was taken from Plato's Republic and recounts how the shepherd Gyges finds a ring on a hand extending from a crack in the earth and removes the ring from the hand and puts it on. Gyges discovers the magic ring gives him powers to be invisible at will and then uses these powers to kill the king, rape the queen and take over the kingdom.
In readily understandable terms we can define virtue for us from this story of Gyges and ask ourselves the question, "What would we do if no one was looking or we knew we would not get caught?"
No heaven, no hell, no karma, no police, nothing but us and our virtue?
Would our actions promote our inner peace as well as the inner peace of others or would our actions destroy our peace and the peace of others?
Is the person's virtue authentic or is it fear based?
Ask yourself why you wish to do something?
Is it for inner peace? Or to massage your ego? Or because it feels good? Or to improve ones karmic debt? Or to fit in? Or because others say so? Or to hurt another? Or to try and escape the consequences of our actions?
What is your driving force?
Fear based reasons for doing something are not authentic and natural actions.
The persons actions are based on negative consequences otherwise they would not do them.
My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my choice.
Put your inner peace foremost and you will have your answer.
When you align real and authentic actions with those that promote inner peace you have found enlightenment.
Take away the fear of pain of karma or hell and you have a different person?
A truly virtuous life remains the same irrespective of such fears and is not based on them
Virtue is not learned from the classroom, other than memorizing definitions.
Remember, a fool can only say what he knows ~ it takes a wise man to know what he says.
How do we become a success at living a virtuous life and really know what we say?
As a lecture on Aristotle mentioned: "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."
We develop it by practice. Practicing 'excellence of the human soul' is how.
After all is said and done, virtue, temptation and the human condition can be boiled down to what James Allen tells us in "As A Man Thinketh" ~ "Circumstances does not make the man - it reveals him to himself"
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
"Does being able to recognize a temptation point to a lack of virtue? In other words: is susceptibility to temptation a sign that a person is lacking in virtue? Can temptation never enter the head of the truly virtuous person, because they wouldn't even recognize it? Or does virtue and moral strength of character show itself precisely in the face of temptation - because then you can make a conscious choice against adversity "
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V writes:
"A temptation is an act that looks appealing to an individual. It is usually used to describe acts with negative connotations and as such, tends to lead a person to regret such actions as a result of guilt."
[URL="http://removed"]http:// [/URL]removed
Good topic.
I sense you seek perfection though, which smacks of the pride disease...another pitfall of human imperfection.
You seek to be 'perfectly virtuous' and 'never have temptation' enter you mind?
No such thing as perfection when it comes to humans.
Even if we are more perfect than not when young, as our minds age we sometime lose some of this perfection with debilitating mental capacities.
I find it is good to 'look for direction and forget perfection' if we wish to be at peace with this subject.
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul." The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our practice.
Perfection is a journey I take and direction I head in - but I never arrive at in life.
Perfection is the nature of gods ~ Imperfection is the nature of humans.
We can see this with logic.
What is logical is not always practical when it comes to humans...is it?
Despite this fact, we can all do better if we try at perfecting inner peace within and with all.
But before we can get into a discussion of this subject in depth. We must note that 'virtue' and 'temptation' differs around the globe.
In addition, many of 'temptations' are man made and must be implanted by man through study before they can be recognized as taboo. Even then, within the same groups, the exact same taboos may change as allowable behavior after time passes.
Evil deeds are not universally evil deeds it seems.
For instance. The age of consent for sexual intercourse varies in the US from age 14 to age 18 depending on which state your in.
One state you are fine with your sex, step over the border and have sex at the wrong age you are in jail for eons.
In other countries it varies even further.
http:// removed
Who is right? Who has the virtue?
Well, what does 'natural law' say on the subject?
When a girl starts menstruating she is ready for sex it seems.
So what is virtuous to one may not be virtuous to all.
Even going back to the 'Good Book', what was OK then would land you in jail many times for such behavior now.
But speaking in general terms most can agree about good and bad virtues if they give it some thought. The problem is people act without thinking many at time, so 'without thought' is where the trouble starts.
You hit the nail on the head when you wrote:
"Or does virtue and moral strength of character show itself precisely in the face of temptation - because then you can make a conscious choice against adversity"
Which is echoed in what a Hindu sage once told me:
"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."
Some people get confused when the question of anger or temptation pops up in their head and beat themselves for 'still experiencing' these emotions thinking they should be a 'perfectly spiritual individual' and above such lowly emotions as getting angry or being tempted. They think they can perfect their lives and wipe out natural law with one blow called spirituality.
Due to the diversity of thought we humans are capable of we have all sorts of thoughts and emotions that pop up in our heads. Without this ability we could not think as we do...we do not think in a vacuum.
But, just because thoughts or emotions pop up in our heads the choice is ours alone whether we foster and build on any particular thought or emotion.
Spirituality does not eliminate such thoughts - it just helps decide what we do with them.
But, as was noted earlier. Just as virtues varies around the globe, so spiritual studies.
For instance Buddhist monks suggest you picture the sexually enticing women in more basic disgusting 'human' forms such a pus, feces, mucus, vomit. Or look deeper within them to see their organs such as liver, intestines or lungs as help with countering sexual thoughts.
On another hand, tantrics make sex their god so to speak and put much effort in combining the spiritual realm with sex.
So who really has the virtue?
The sexless monk trying to escape natural thoughts through unnatural means or the sex based tantric practitioner whose spiritual world revolves around sex?
Authenticity may shed some light on where the virtue resides. The study of philosophy that deals with developing virtue stems back to the early Greek philosophers. Virtue can be defined as 'excellence of the soul' or moral excellence.
Although the Greeks thought of 'soul and form' in different terms than say Christians think of soul. For example, the soul of an eye would be its ability to 'see' and whether this ability was good or bad would decide whether the soul of an eye had 'virtue' or excellence.
The concept of understanding virtue can be told in a story of the 'Ring of Gyges' or 'Myth of Gyges'.
This story was taken from Plato's Republic and recounts how the shepherd Gyges finds a ring on a hand extending from a crack in the earth and removes the ring from the hand and puts it on. Gyges discovers the magic ring gives him powers to be invisible at will and then uses these powers to kill the king, rape the queen and take over the kingdom.
In readily understandable terms we can define virtue for us from this story of Gyges and ask ourselves the question, "What would we do if no one was looking or we knew we would not get caught?"
No heaven, no hell, no karma, no police, nothing but us and our virtue?
Would our actions promote our inner peace as well as the inner peace of others or would our actions destroy our peace and the peace of others?
Is the person's virtue authentic or is it fear based?
Ask yourself why you wish to do something?
Is it for inner peace? Or to massage your ego? Or because it feels good? Or to improve ones karmic debt? Or to fit in? Or because others say so? Or to hurt another? Or to try and escape the consequences of our actions?
What is your driving force?
Fear based reasons for doing something are not authentic and natural actions.
The persons actions are based on negative consequences otherwise they would not do them.
My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my choice.
Put your inner peace foremost and you will have your answer.
When you align real and authentic actions with those that promote inner peace you have found enlightenment.
Take away the fear of pain of karma or hell and you have a different person?
A truly virtuous life remains the same irrespective of such fears and is not based on them
Virtue is not learned from the classroom, other than memorizing definitions.
Remember, a fool can only say what he knows ~ it takes a wise man to know what he says.
How do we become a success at living a virtuous life and really know what we say?
As a lecture on Aristotle mentioned: "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit."
We develop it by practice. Practicing 'excellence of the human soul' is how.
After all is said and done, virtue, temptation and the human condition can be boiled down to what James Allen tells us in "As A Man Thinketh" ~ "Circumstances does not make the man - it reveals him to himself"
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
