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On "sexual objectification"

OldWiseGuy

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Maybe objectifying women is a good thing. Look at the middle east. The reason strict Muslim men want women totally covered is because, as one stated, "Every part of a woman's body is sexually attractive". This reveals that sex occupies a great deal of their thoughts (72 virgins and all that). But once you're 'fed to the full' you lose some of your appetite. In the west we are fed to the full and can move on to more productive thoughts.
 
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stevevw

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I think the media can contribute a lot of our perceptions here. Well at least for what we see in Australia. They say sex sells and just about everything we see has a women attached to it when advertised even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the product. Men have grown up with a image having to get you girlfriend in bed by the 2nd or third date or your not just living up to the image. Then there's the one night stands which can go both ways at demeaning relationships and all that goes with it into a pleasure fest of getting your rocks off and never having to know more than the first name of the person.

The constant access to porn on the net also demeans women and makes it all about sex and a meat market. So I guess we are what we see and are fed. But hopefully as a person grows they can see beyond that and realize that life is not all about night clubs, parties and one night stands. That if you want to have some more substance your going to have to go beyond first base and a home run and play the game by the rules of engagement.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I find it quite ridiculous, no matter what the point of any argument is:

These are the facts:

1. Women were made by God to give comfort to man
2. Women are physically beautiful beings made to be attractive to man
3. It is in a man's natural instinct to want to look at and be pleasured by a woman

When we go against naturality, we create an illusion of life and when that illusion fails it only brings more technicalities.

I need a moment to internally scream in angst over this post

... ... ...

Ok, got that out of my system. Still feel angst at there being people who think women are meant to be a lovely prop for men, but I think I can maybe manage to keep things civil.
 
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Skaloop

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I find it quite ridiculous, no matter what the point of any argument is:

These are the facts:

1. Women were made by God to give comfort to man
2. Women are physically beautiful beings made to be attractive to man
3. It is in a man's natural instinct to want to look at and be pleasured by a woman

When we go against naturality, we create an illusion of life and when that illusion fails it only brings more technicalities.

None of those things you listed are even close to facts. Two are outright false, and the last one is only half occasionally partially true some of the time.
 
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Joykins

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None of those things you listed are even close to facts. Two are outright false, and the last one is only half occasionally partially true some of the time.

On the other hand, the list was like this perfect little example of objectification ...
 
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OldWiseGuy

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On the other hand, the list was like this perfect little example of objectification ...

Many do take the bible's account of the creation of woman literally, i.e. woman was made to be a comfort to man.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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None of those things you listed are even close to facts. Two are outright false, and the last one is only half occasionally partially true some of the time.

All three are facts (number one has been recorded as fact and has never been disproven), although many are doing their best to make them not facts.
 
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Paulos23

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Many do take the bible's account of the creation of woman literally, i.e. woman was made to be a comfort to man.

And that is limiting the ablities of women....many who take the bible literally would be supprised what they can do if they treated them as equal.
 
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Paulos23

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All three are facts (number one has been recorded as fact and has never been disproven), although many are doing their best to make them not facts.

Nothing in my life has shown these to be facts, and hard as some wish to make them.
 
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Joykins

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Many do take the bible's account of the creation of woman literally, i.e. woman was made to be a comfort to man.

Only, the Bible says "helper", not "comfort." If we are taking things literally, that is.
 
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TerranceL

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TerranceL

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[quote=Embedded;66702995]Yes... I am a little familiar with #shirtgate. What evidence do you have that he was at all bullied?[/quote]

Wait... so you think that after the biggest day of his life he felt the need to cry on international tv and apologize for a shirt after twitter blew up with calls that he was a misogynist and such... but that had nothing to do with it.. he just broke down and wept because he has a fashion issue?
 
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TerranceL

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And when does that happen?
Sometimes, sure.
But whole industries and the structures of society is not based on it.

On what planet? The entertainment industry, the modeling industry..

Hey wanna know about objectification? We could always ask "Alex from Target".
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And that is limiting the ablities of women....many who take the bible literally would be supprised what they can do if they treated them as equal.

The primary attribute of a wife to help her husband in no way limits her other abilities. See Proverbs 31 for a broader picture of woman's abilities. :preach:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Only, the Bible says "helper", not "comfort." If we are taking things literally, that is.

Comfort(er) is a synonym of help meet/succour(er).
 
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JustMeSee

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Looking at celebrities. Denzel Wahington, Hugh Jackman, Justin beiber's bare chest photos. Magic Mike.

Looking at many photos of Kim K., supermarket magazine covers of women's magazines, many female actresses and models.

All objectified.
Seeing a comely person on the street. Objectified.

Noticing beautiful people anywhere. Objectified.

What is the real point?
One reason why I refuse to take the feminist label.

Fighting the instinct to find people attractive is stupid and impossible to change.

You can't get to know everybody you find attractive. The surface is so superficial, but it prompts us often to know more about the individual.

If somebody wants to drink in surface beauty, so be it. Just treat people as more than just a visual entity.

Hugh Hefner, a pro woman's rights activist, was deemed an enemy for his magazine and clubs. What the feminists failed to recognize was each and every woman desired to pose nude at the time of photography. They likely knew the would be seen as objects.

Women's rights. Is it a pro or con for feminists to verbally tell women not to pose nude, and consequently be seen as an object in a photo?

Maybe, some people may like to be seen as an object on occasion. I don't know, but I won't criticize that right.

Just treat people well. Not such a complex request.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Fighting the instinct to find people attractive is stupid and impossible to change.

Precisely. It's become a war on human nature.

It's all very frustrating, because I agree that women should have an equal status as men in society. But we have to put up with all of the nonsense that goes along with feminism as a movement.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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poolerboy0077

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Actually... there is a problem with that definition. I bolded the particular word I have a problem with. Instead try replacing the word viewing with the word treating in that sentence:
Sexual objectification, as defined by many feminists, is the treating of people solely as depersonalized objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own.
It may seem a trivial change to some but I think it is an important distinction to be made between how you see a person and how you behave towards that person. The former is internal to your own mind and the latter is external.
Have you ever heard of "the male gaze" in second-wave feminist theory? But okay, I'll go with you alteration. That doesn't really change the problem as I've presented it.


Woah... "any interaction" ? I have never heard of such a concept. You jumped from a rather vague definition to an absolute application of that definition to every situation. Looks a bit like a straw man to me.
Okay, for those of you with severe Asperger's I meant any lascivious interaction. To take two recent examples, the women who went viral for uploading video of catcalling included guys saying "good morning beautiful" with guys stalking her for a full 5 minutes beside her. Or how about a bowling shirt with scantily clad women?


If someone looks at a female and appreciates her visually, one is failing to take into account all of the above qualities.
Doing one thing does not automatically exclude doing the others.
I would agree, but you're telling that to the wrong person. Tell them.


I think you need to back up your argument with some real evidence that it is what "these feminists" actually want. I don't think you can.
Okay.

From Stanford.edu:
“Pornography defines women by how we look according to how we can be sexually used. … Pornography participates in its audience's eroticism through creating an accessible sexual object, the possession and consumption of which is male sexuality, as socially constructed; to be consumed and possessed as which, is female sexuality, as socially constructed” (MacKinnon 1987, 173).

“… A sex object is defined on the basis of its looks, in terms of its usability for sexual pleasure, such that both the looking—the quality of gaze, including its points of view—and the definition according to use become eroticised as part of the sex itself. This is what the feminist concept of ‘sex object’ means” (MacKinnon 1987, 173).

From Wikipedia:
In 1987, Dworkin published Intercourse, in which she extended her analysis from pornography to sexual intercourse itself, and argued that the sort of sexual subordination depicted in pornography was central to men's and women's experiences of heterosexual intercourse in a male supremacist society. In the book, she argues that all heterosexual sex in our patriarchal society is coercive and degrading to women, and sexual penetration may by its very nature doom women to inferiority and submission, and "may be immune to reform".
--Andrea Dworkin

"The Pragmatist and the Feminist" :
If the social regime permits buying and selling of sexual and reproductive activities, thereby treating them as fungible market commodities given the current capitalistic understandings of monetary exchange, there is a threat to the personhood of women, who are the "owners" of these "commodities." The threat to personhood from commodification arises because essential attributes are treated as severable fungible objects, and this denies the integrity and uniqueness of the self.
--Professor Margaret Jane Radin
 
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Joykins

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Comfort(er) is a synonym of help meet/succour(er).

The most literal translations say helper, but, if you want to keep it to the sense of comfort alone, you've moved past literality into interpretation. ;) And if we take it into the sense of "comfort women" because it's all synonymous and stuff, well, then you're back to sexual objectification, aren't you?
 
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