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On "sexual objectification"

poolerboy0077

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Yeah, but that's not exactly what Nussbaum said:

"That is, a woman is not shown respect as an end in herself, but is treated as a mere instrument of male fantasy and male desire."

A cartoon is just that, you can't "treat it" as a full person, that's just silly.
You're missing the forest for the trees, Joy. It's not that men would victimize a cartoon. Even extremists like Dworkin wouldn't be that careless. It's about, at least as they see it, fostering an attitude of viewing women as only play things for men. You seem to want to wedge feminist theorizing with what many feminist activits are actually yelling about and pushing for. These attitudes come from somewhere and they come directly from the ivory tower that instill a paranoia about the "male gaze" and other nonsense.
 
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Joykins

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You're missing the forest for the trees, Joy. It's not that men would victimize a cartoon. Even extremists like Dworkin wouldn't be that careless. It's about, at least as they see it, fostering an attitude of viewing women as only play things for men. You seem to want to wedge feminist theorizing with what many feminist activits are actually yelling about and pushing for. These attitudes come from somewhere and they come directly from the ivory tower that instill a paranoia about the "male gaze" and other nonsense.

I just said that I saw nothing to object to in the Nussbaum quote, and I quote myself here, "isolated" (from things that are not in it).

Whether pictures of pretty girls almost wearing something foster an attitude of objectification seems largely an individual matter. One is unlikely to meet cartoons, or even Kathy Ireland (thinking back to when we were dating and my husband had a poster of her in a bikini on his wall) or other fashion models/pinups, and therefore we are left with evaluating how people treat other people. Leering, ogling, catcalling, speaking disrespectfully etc. are ways that one SHOWS that one has objectified another.

I mean, I can appreciate a picture of an attractive woman just as well as a man could, but I don't think it justifies--or leads me to--TREAT that woman or any woman poorly.
 
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poolerboy0077

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I just said that I saw nothing to object to in the Nussbaum quote, and I quote myself here, "isolated" (from things that are not in it).

Whether pictures of pretty girls almost wearing something foster an attitude of objectification seems largely an individual matter. One is unlikely to meet cartoons, or even Kathy Ireland (thinking back to when we were dating and my husband had a poster of her in a bikini on his wall) or other fashion models/pinups, and therefore we are left with evaluating how people treat other people. Leering, ogling, catcalling, speaking disrespectfully etc. are ways that one SHOWS that one has objectified another.

I mean, I can appreciate a picture of an attractive woman just as well as a man could, but I don't think it justifies--or leads me to--TREAT that woman or any woman poorly.
How is ogling and catcalling necessarily evidence of objectification exactly? I agree that it's crass and tasteless, but I disagree that it's evidence that one has dehumanized another in their mind.
 
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sunshine456

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Simply put another word that defines the premises of this thread more clearly is LUST. We are warned about this sin in scriptures and to abstain from the defilement's of this world. We are also told that women should dress in all modesty.

There are many examples and many instructions we are given in regards to what is being stated in this thread and with greater wisdom that identifies those catalysts for even more entrapment's.

If we look at today's standard of attire, it is apparent that moral structure is sorely lacking; short, tight, low apparel is all to common in today's standards. We have model shows that represent the immodesty in it's production and presentation.

Where revealing was once taboo and very uncommon, it is acceptable and now heavily built on common ground in most countries through out the world. It is also noted that in a time when the one piece bathing suit was considered immodest; it is now considered extremely old school and the two piece dental floss is the norm.

Many other facets of general life could be construed as objectification, but the remaining steady point is that these facsimiles definitely influence the viewer or on looker by enticements and temptations, going so far as to say with carnal appetites or cravings.

"Why do we need these influences of lust and the carnal?"

WE DON"T!!! It is healthy, just and righteous for us to remain undefiled by any thing that might trigger or otherwise cause us to defile ourselves. Be it in thought or action!

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 
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Hetta

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Let this thread be about sexual objectification as advanced by feminists. Read before responding.

___​

Sexual objectification, as defined by many feminists, is the viewing of people solely as depersonalized objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own.

As stated there isn't much of a problem with the definition or its implementation in principle, but rather with it being put into practice. Everything from magazines featuring women's bodies to gazing at a woman in person walking down the street are cited by proponents of the above definition as supporting evidence. Such people appear to view any interaction of a male to a female as degrading because it is failing to take into account the full appreciation of a woman's whole humanity: her hopes, her fears, her aspirations, her ambitions, her regrets -- everything that makes that woman who she is, according to such people, must be central to the interaction and completely fleshed out. This is how equality is defined.

If someone looks at a female and appreciates her visually, one is failing to take into account all of the above qualities. This is oppression, as they see it. Their attitude is an unrealistic and highly ludicrous demand of social interaction both interpersonally and at the level of society. None of us go throughout our lives regarding every single human we encounter in this way. It isn't as though such feminists engage in deep, philosophical conversation with the cashier at Walgreens or Albertsons lest they risk objectifying them for not taking into account their entire humanity, as opposed to simply using them for the service of getting their things checked out. (Presumably they use the self checkout on moral grounds.)

Advancing this attitude, which is becoming pervasive amongst young women today, is harmful. It distracts us from real victimization and harmful attitudes toward women by casting a net so wide as to nearly encompass all men, their sexuality and human interaction.
If this is happening then it's messed up. It's ridiculous to pretend that people don't look at the gender that they are attracted to and admire certain individuals within that gender. Geez, I openly admit my celebrity crushes and laugh about them with my friends, and none of us thinks there is anything wrong with that.

However, it would be nice to see the front cover of a car/bike magazine that did not have a biniki'd woman draped over the vehicle. I just don't get that. I guess that 'sex sells'. But the magazine industry also seems to be minimizing the intelligence of men by assuming that they will only buy a magazine if there are boobs on the front cover.
 
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Hetta

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How is ogling and catcalling necessarily evidence of objectification exactly? I agree that it's crass and tasteless, but I disagree that it's evidence that one has dehumanized another in their mind.
Not answering for Joykins but ime, the catcalling is typically not from a person who knows the person they are calling after. It's done on the basis of power. I have been that young woman and it is very discomfiting and unpleasant especially when it is more than one man, and the woman is alone. If the man/men (or if women were doing this) put themselves in that person's place, or imagined someone doing it to their loved ones, I suspect that they wouldn't do it at all.
 
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poolerboy0077

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Not answering for Joykins but ime, the catcalling is typically not from a person who knows the person they are calling after. It's done on the basis of power. I have been that young woman and it is very discomfiting and unpleasant especially when it is more than one man, and the woman is alone. If the man/men (or if women were doing this) put themselves in that person's place, or imagined someone doing it to their loved ones, I suspect that they wouldn't do it at all.
I've been catcalled too and it is unpleasant. I don't think that would stop men, though. Gay men know both what it's like to receive catcalls and give them, and that hasn't stopped many from doing it. But again, we're talking about objectification as in dehumanization. That catcalling may make me cringe is a separate gripe.
 
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stevevw

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I think its more than the sexual objectification of women. Like someone said sex sells and its funny how a half naked women is associated with sporty cars and bikes. Its like blokes and their cars and then women come a close 2nd or maybe 1st depending on how much you can get away with tinkering around in the garage with your mates and machines.

But it seems they are always the ideal perfect women as well. But then we are getting the ideal perfect bloke on covers and parading on our TV screens making us men look inadequate as well. They seem to look like they have money as well as if that doesn't rub a blokes face in it. But they are never over weight or not looking like MR Clooney or Pitt. I reckon there's a fair bit of photo shopping and air brushing going on. This is all part of this perfect body image that we see in Hollywood and the media and on the cat walks. No wonder young girls are developing eating disorders and guys are feeling inadequate. Its unreal and its all part of this reality TV thing where everyone now wants to be a celeb.

The reality is the celebs are just normal and have their imperfections away from the cameras and glitter. We all dont have perfect bodies in fact we are heading for a health crisis with obesity and heart disease. The sooner we get real and realize that Hollywood stars are not gods and need to start facing the truth that we are not perfect and invisible.
 
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