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On "sexual objectification"

poolerboy0077

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Let this thread be about sexual objectification as advanced by feminists. Read before responding.

___​

Sexual objectification, as defined by many feminists, is the viewing of people solely as depersonalized objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own.

As stated there isn't much of a problem with the definition or its implementation in principle, but rather with it being put into practice. Everything from magazines featuring women's bodies to gazing at a woman in person walking down the street are cited by proponents of the above definition as supporting evidence. Such people appear to view any interaction of a male to a female as degrading because it is failing to take into account the full appreciation of a woman's whole humanity: her hopes, her fears, her aspirations, her ambitions, her regrets -- everything that makes that woman who she is, according to such people, must be central to the interaction and completely fleshed out. This is how equality is defined.

If someone looks at a female and appreciates her visually, one is failing to take into account all of the above qualities. This is oppression, as they see it. Their attitude is an unrealistic and highly ludicrous demand of social interaction both interpersonally and at the level of society. None of us go throughout our lives regarding every single human we encounter in this way. It isn't as though such feminists engage in deep, philosophical conversation with the cashier at Walgreens or Albertsons lest they risk objectifying them for not taking into account their entire humanity, as opposed to simply using them for the service of getting their things checked out. (Presumably they use the self checkout on moral grounds.)

Advancing this attitude, which is becoming pervasive amongst young women today, is harmful. It distracts us from real victimization and harmful attitudes toward women by casting a net so wide as to nearly encompass all men, their sexuality and human interaction.
 

Eudaimonist

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Their attitude is an unrealistic and highly ludicrous demand of social interaction both interpersonally and at the level of society.

This^

Advancing this attitude, which is becoming pervasive amongst young women today, is harmful. It distracts us from real victimization and harmful attitudes toward women by casting a net so wide as to nearly encompass all men, their sexuality and human interaction.

Agreed. Feminism has its good points. Certainly, I want women to be seen as complete human persons.

But feminism clearly has its excesses. It doesn't seem to be a war on inequality so much as on masculinity. It is time to stand up to the puritanical feminist bullies.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/17/its-time-to-push-back-against-feminist-bullies/


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Freodin

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It doesn't seem to be a war on inequality so much as on masculinity.
Sure there are exaggerations... but as most of what counts as "masculinity" in todays society seems to be "just being a jerk", I cannot fundamentally disagree with the "feminist bullies" here.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Sure there are exaggerations... but as most of what counts as "masculinity" in todays society seems to be "just being a jerk", I cannot fundamentally disagree with the "feminist bullies" here.

Sometimes men are jerks. Sometimes women are jerks. That's true equality for you. ;)

I can fundamentally disagree with the feminist bullies because sometimes they are wrong. I'm not saying that they are always wrong, just that there are excesses.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Any principle when extended beyond the bounds of reason can distort the cause it's trying to advocate. This extreme idea of feminism is like a circus mirror portrayal of it because it is so disproportional. I do not believe we should systemically objectify anyone in a way that reduces their value as a whole person, but I also do not believe that an appreciation for aesthetics is in any way negative.

I've attended all-girls school since I was eleven that have a precept of feminism, and have never encountered attitudes akin to the ones described in the OP. We're encouraged to make the most of ourselves and our lives. To me, embracing how we appear and taking care of ourselves is a huge part of that because our body is the only gift we get to keep for our entire life. Our confidence should never be dependent upon how others perceive our looks, but it's also perfectly fine that it's affected by it. And it's also fine to appreciate the beauty and aesthetics of others, so long as it's in a mindful way instead of a demeaning one.

I'm a feminist. And I'm also currently featured in a Rip Curl ad for their swimwear line. :D
 
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Gadarene

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Any principle when extended beyond the bounds of reason can distort the cause it's trying to advocate. This extreme idea of feminism is like a circus mirror portrayal of it because it is so disproportional.

You do realise this is a pretty common feminist definition of (and approach to) objectification, right? It's kinda hard to palm it off to extremists when it's happening regularly, certainly when it's being pushed by feminist journalists.

Maybe there is a huge seething majority of feminists who *don't* think this way, but then they need to take control of the narrative back from these other feminists.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Let this thread be about sexual objectification as advanced by feminists. Read before responding.

___​

Sexual objectification, as defined by many feminists, is the viewing of people solely as depersonalized objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own.

As stated there isn't much of a problem with the definition or its implementation in principle, but rather with it being put into practice. Everything from magazines featuring women's bodies to gazing at a woman in person walking down the street are cited by proponents of the above definition as supporting evidence. Such people appear to view any interaction of a male to a female as degrading because it is failing to take into account the full appreciation of a woman's whole humanity: her hopes, her fears, her aspirations, her ambitions, her regrets -- everything that makes that woman who she is, according to such people, must be central to the interaction and completely fleshed out. This is how equality is defined.

If someone looks at a female and appreciates her visually, one is failing to take into account all of the above qualities. This is oppression, as they see it. Their attitude is an unrealistic and highly ludicrous demand of social interaction both interpersonally and at the level of society. None of us go throughout our lives regarding every single human we encounter in this way. It isn't as though such feminists engage in deep, philosophical conversation with the cashier at Walgreens or Albertsons lest they risk objectifying them for not taking into account their entire humanity, as opposed to simply using them for the service of getting their things checked out. (Presumably they use the self checkout on moral grounds.)

Advancing this attitude, which is becoming pervasive amongst young women today, is harmful. It distracts us from real victimization and harmful attitudes toward women by casting a net so wide as to nearly encompass all men, their sexuality and human interaction.

They've made me feel bad for liking boobs. :cry:
 
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Ada Lovelace

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You do realise this is a pretty common feminist definition of (and approach to) objectification, right? It's kinda hard to palm it off to extremists when it's happening regularly, certainly when it's being pushed by feminist journalists.

Maybe there is a huge seething majority of feminists who *don't* think this way, but then they need to take control of the narrative back from these other feminists.

As an atheist you do not need to take control of the narrative back from the legacy of Christopher Hitchens and militantly aggressive dogma of "anti-theists", and Christians don't need to take control of the narrative back from the hateful theatrics of Westboro Baptist Church or the ultra-fundamentalism of those like Kirk Cameron. The brashest, most audacious and outlandish extremists of any ideology, religion, or group are typically the loudest even though they are usually the minority. Hopefully, most people do not think they are representative of the majority who have the same core beliefs but diametrically different ways of enacting them and leading their lives. Yes, I am aware of Naomi Wolf's "The Beauty Myth" and the small but outspoken legion of feminists who've followed that mindset. Meh. That's not how most of us define objectification and apply it to our lives.

Authentic feminism is not about bra-burning, misandry-promotion, or radicalism. It's simply about equal opportunities. I don't pay attention to the feminist journalists you're referencing. I do pay attention to real-life feminists in my life and to ones who've inspired me. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright spoke to our school last spring, and when I was 14 Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gave an equally empowering speech to us. They're feminists, too. If you actually are one, that's demonstrated by your actions and not by your bumper sticker or your Tweets.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Advancing this attitude, which is becoming pervasive amongst young women today, is harmful. It distracts us from real victimization

Are we unable to think about (or act on) more than one thing at a time?
 
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essentialsaltes

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I guess I don't see it. Rape and sexual assault are crimes and are treated as crimes. If anything, the current culture has become more attuned to these matters so that date rape and marital rape are also treated appropriately, when formerly they were discounted. I don't think that, I dunno, a catcalling video going viral, detracts from dealing with more violent and serious offenses.
 
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Gadarene

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As an atheist you do not need to take control of the narrative back from the legacy of Christopher Hitchens and militantly aggressive dogma of "anti-theists"

Well, no, but then I'm not claiming anything about whether they were atheists or not based on the fact that they're aggressive in a particular way. How they choose to conduct themselves in debate has nothing to do with whether they are an atheist or not.

You, by constrast, *are* making claims about what is and isn't feminism based on whether or not they disagree with what you think objectification is. So - false comparison :wave:

At the very least such ridiculous definitions of "objectification" are scarcely extreme - it can't be when it is so commonplace among feminists.

and Christians don't need to take control of the narrative back from the hateful theatrics of Westboro Baptist Church or the ultra-fundamentalism of those like Kirk Cameron. The brashest, most audacious and outlandish extremists of any ideology, religion, or group are typically the loudest even though they are usually the minority. Hopefully, most people do not think they are representative of the majority who have the same core beliefs but diametrically different ways of enacting them and leading their lives.

It is not necessarily about numerical majority but influence. Why have these particular feminists been allowed to gain such influence in the press if they do not represent what this so-called "authentic feminism" is?

Usually what happens is precisely what you've done here - feminists like you criticise people who criticise the movement, rather than criticise the feminists giving the movement a bad name. You would rather spend more energy criticising your critics than reforming your movement.

This would be akin to Christians whining at non-Christians who point out that Westboro Baptist Church are also Christians and are a problem, and doing nothing about WBC.

Yes, I am aware of Naomi Wolf's "The Beauty Myth" and the small but outspoken legion of feminists who've followed that mindset. Meh. That's not how most of us define objectification and apply it to our lives.

Well, I'll believe it when I see it. Like with so many of these buzzwords, there's probably some sensible usage of it, but it's been drowned in a sea of crap.

Authentic feminism is not about bra-burning, misandry-promotion, or radicalism. It's simply about equal opportunities.

Then there is very little authentic feminism around, which is why the movement isn't really worth anyone's time.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Gadarene

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I haven't claimed that those who are promoting this specific ideology weren't feminists as they identified themselves as being, but rather that they are not representative of everyone who believes that equality for women if a fundamental human right and is therefore also a feminist. You seem to keep thinking of feminism in regards to political movements or media statements associated with it instead of recognize it at its most core value.

And those gain disproportionate influence. Why are they not being challenged in the media?

OK. The passive aggressive hand wave thing is just so high school, and you're clearly well beyond that age. Seriously. And it actually was an apt comparison if you understood it as intended.

It was the least your flawed comparison deserved. Again, atheism just entails a lack of belief in deities. It's understood for the most part that it entails just that, and disagreements on other matters don't lead to accusations of not being a true feminist. Feminists on the other hand do this at the drop of a had - plenty of feminists would reject your bumper-sticker definition as too simplistic. In contrast to atheism, there are plenty of feminists who claim it is more of a totalistic worldview than simply seeking equality or thinking women are people.

I personally reject your slogan because it's like saying "Stalinism is the radical notion that workers are people" - it's dismissing a heck of a lot of historical and conceptual baggage associated with the label.

Once again, I explaining to you that a subset of feminists who happen to be more vocal and prominent, since many are in the media, believe in that definition of objectification and in correlating actions to it. I'm not claimed that they are not also feminists. I'm simply saying they do not represent the majority of people who identify as feminists.

Maybe that's true, but there is little being heard from those people.

Just because something is prominent doesn't mean it isn't radical. I don't think it's "commonplace" but I do think it's been given more media attention because of the prominence of those promoting it.

And that ends up having a disproportionate effect on the perception of the movement. 80% of people think equality is a good goal, but about 20% want to identify as feminist. You don't think this is a problem at all?

ETA - I posted thoughts about this on Twitter and Tumblr tonight (I didn't reference this thread, you, or any specific comments from you, but just general thoughts from here to throw into the conversation), and others were also surprised that such a strident definition of "objectification" would be considered common of feminists. It's not one any of us support, and as of 1:45AM PST there have been 102 comments.

Ha, on twitter and tumblr, the two most SJW-tastic social networks? Throw a dart in a given direction, you'll find some.

True feminism is merely about working towards creating fairer opportunities for a healthy and productive life for women rather than marginalizing them due to their gender. In the Western world you might think the need for it has been diminished, but that's a myopic view.

Yes, goodness knows where I got that idea from given that feminists in the west spend their time bullying male scientists into apologising for a shirt they wear, or trying to ban the word "bossy", or ban songs they don't like, etc. etc.

I actually did criticize those feminists but I redirected focus to ones place more emphasis on meaningful actions that help to improve the lives of others than on sound bytes.

She said, after posting that trite soundbite above.

Yes, I also criticize you because you can't seem to separate feminism, in its foundational principle, from a "movement." I'm not exactly expending a lot of energy on it, dude. I'm sitting in the backseat in standstill traffic.

You can't separate the two because they go by the same label. The association is there whether you like it or not, and this is why I refrain from association myself with labels and movements wherever possible.

Actually, I'm too busy striving to lead a life aligned with authentic feminist principles to give much of a damn about what this person or that says on the media because talking heads are a plenty. The way you reform anything is by a collective group of people doing their personal best to fulfill the truest principles of it.

It also needs to be promoted and presented. Perceptions will not change without information on these actions being put forward.

What do you think Christians should do about the WBC?

Openly challenge them more, including in the press. At the very least drop the no-true-scotsmening.

Similarly, as I wrote above, true feminists devote their time to simply promoting the values of feminism through their own actions and the lives we lead. Acta non verba.

See, you keep saying you're not claiming the actions of media feminists aren't feminist, but then you keep using phrases like "true feminists" in this way. Which is it?

You choose to see what you want to see.

I thought you said you were trying to avoid soundbites? ^_^

Stop looking around on the internet and on TV and look for real-life exemplifications of feminism. There are many of us out there, but we tend to be too focused on what we're doing to make tee shirts and bumper stickers about it.

Apart from when you post a bumper sticker as part of your point, of course.

Real life exemplifications of feminism have been no better IME - they still buy into the same stupid ideology that paints men as oppressors, they oppose true equality by dismissing and downplaying men's issues. Feminism is a waste of time, and an obstacle towards equality.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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And those gain disproportionate influence. Why are they not being challenged in the media?

I imagine they have been challenged in the media, but the more outlandish and feather-ruffling opinions generate more controversy and therefore more interest and are given prominence.

It was the least your flawed comparison deserved.

Whoosh. It's flawed to you because it perpetually sailed over your head; you have still failed to realize what I was explaining to you and instead just respond with juvenile belligerence. And I was mistaken to have engaged with you after the first time you did it, considering this is an internet forum and we have to manage our time wisely on it.

It's after 4 in the morning, I woke up in the middle of the night because I'm a dancer and my feet sometimes scream at me for it, and popped on for a few. I have school in three hours, and after skimming the bitter bloviation you wrote here I realize it's not worth giving you, random rude dude on the internet, any more of my time in such a packed day ahead and need to focus on priorities. You have fundamentally misunderstood what I wrote, and react with a weird degree of hostility to it. Meh. That's your prerogative but it's not my problem. Peace out.
 
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selfinflikted

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Gadarene

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Whoosh. It's flawed to you because it perpetually sailed over your head; you have still failed to realize what I was explaining to you and instead just respond with juvenile belligerence. And I was mistaken to have engaged with you after the first time you did it, considering this is an internet forum and we have to manage our time wisely on it.

It's after 4 in the morning, I woke up in the middle of the night because I'm a dancer and my feet sometimes scream at me for it, and popped on for a few. I have school in three hours, and after skimming the bitter bloviation you wrote here I realize it's not worth giving you, random rude dude on the internet, any more of my time in such a packed day ahead and need to focus on priorities. You have fundamentally misunderstood what I wrote, and react with a weird degree of hostility to it. Meh. That's your prerogative but it's not my problem. Peace out.

Shame - you could have learned something.
 
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Skaloop

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But feminism clearly has its excesses. It doesn't seem to be a war on inequality so much as on masculinity.

What is masculinity? What does it mean to be masculine?
 
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