On prayer: Did John Wesley miss it?

[Alithis]

God created the heavens and the earth all by Himself, I am sure there are others things He can do by Himself without needing us and often He does, He is not a passive God but alive and active all the times . But He also knows its to our benefit to be involved in what He is doing and invites us to be part of it.

Why does mankind think they are God and God is something to manipulate to get what we want. Its not like that at all. God is working out His purposes in and through believers and non believers all the time. We can either join in with what He is already doing or miss out.

I don't think anyone is saying they try to manipulate any one.

And I maintain that it is only assumption to say God worked in someone's life in our generation with out prayer.
As we cannot know that.
Do you know if some dear sister in the lord ,while praying. In the spirit in her room in Scandinavia did not pray mysteries in tongues and pray directly for a certain thing...
We just cannot make such outright statements.

 

[Messy]

I do not agree with this at all. Jesus said that he only did what he saw the Father do (John 5.19). To me that says that Jesus followed the lead of his Father and participated with him in his ministry to others. God initiates every healing or whatever ministry we perform with him and I cannot see how our prayers can possibly effect what God will do. We are not the center of the universe and God does not exist for us. And there is more to prayer than just asking God to do things. IMO, Jesus prayed because he longed to commune with the Father.

Well if it's good we don't pray for what we want, He leads us in prayer and He can use us, not the other way around.

 

[Messy]

I do not agree with this at all. Jesus said that he only did what he saw the Father do (John 5.19). To me that says that Jesus followed the lead of his Father and participated with him in his ministry to others. God initiates every healing or whatever ministry we perform with him and I cannot see how our prayers can possibly effect what God will do. We are not the center of the universe and God does not exist for us. And there is more to prayer than just asking God to do things. IMO, Jesus prayed because he longed to commune with the Father.

Well if it's good we don't pray for what we want, He leads us in prayer, we don't even know what we pray and He can use us, not the other way around.

 

[JimB]

I don't think anyone is saying they try to manipulate any one.

And I maintain that it is only assumption to say God worked in someone's life in our generation with out prayer.
As we cannot know that.
Do you know if some dear sister in the lord ,while praying. In the spirit in her room in Scandinavia did not pray mysteries in tongues and pray directly for a certain thing...
We just cannot make such outright statements.

But that’s the deception, IMO: the way we teach prayer sees prayer as a method of getting God to do what we want (i.e., manipulation). Most of our prayers are begging God to heal us, pay our bills, save our loved ones, do our bidding as if he were otherwise unaware or unconcerned about us. It seems most people think that if they pray more, and go to church more, or start giving a tithe, or fast they can get God (i.e., manipulate him) to do what they need/want. IMO God knows what we need (not want) and supplies it with or without prayer, tithing, or fasting. The main purpose of prayer is communion with God and the byproduct is in the way it changes us. Anyhow, that’s how I now see prayer.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

Wesley said:

God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God without praying for it themselves, (which is exceeding rare,) were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer.

Was he wrong?

I think he believed that. Personally I don't think that way and disagree, but my faith is not Wesley's. I think genuine faith is one that we arrive to (are divinely led to) on our own, not what someone else's faith is. It may have been or still is comforting to those who look to him as an authority on this matter. I don't think it works that way tough.

I think prayer is just talking to God. You can ask Him for the desires of your heart and trust the answer, whatever it is. That's my personal faith. I don't however claim responsibility for others healings or salvations. I've heard people say..."well if it wasn't for grandma praying..." I think that is incredibly presumptuous. Grandma has no power to save you and if you are relying on the faithfulness of others prayers then your foundation is uncertain indeed. That's what is intimate and personal about a real relationship with God. You know that when the smoke clears it was really just between you and Him all along.

That's my two cents anyway