On Poverty

[Live4Jesus]

Someone in the apologetics area wanted to know why God doesn't feed all the poor people... you know that type of question and where it can lead with an unbeliever...

So I wanted to post here some thoughts on the issue. For instance, in India, this is what missionaries deal with... this is an excerpt from a newsletter of a church we tithe to that does lots of mission work there:

"India's Poverty Is a Spiritual Issue

India is a land of plenty, but most of the people are kept in poverty by two important teachings of Hinduism, their primary religion.

First, their cows, which are worshipped as gods, consume 20% of the total food supply. Each cow eats enough for 7 people. The more than 209 million cows consume enough food to feed 1.4 billion people. India's population is around 1 billion. It is a fertile land which produces more than enough food to feed their people. If they got rid of all the cows -or better yet, ate the cows- they could sell the exces to feed the poor in other nations.

Second, Hindus believe that the needs of the poor, destitute and wretched individuals should not be met. They believe that these people need tp pay the penalty in this life for their misdeeds in a past life; only then will they be able to ascend to a higher level. in other words, helping someone in need prevents him from getting to the next klevel. There is no regard for human life."


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Likewise I have also read that one of the main reasons that Muslims are so caught up in war, is that they believe that people should live an extremely bare existence in order to be closer to God; in other words the lack of material possesions is what can help us achieve that closeness with God. So that therefore, as the logic goes, when one tribe asssaults another and destroys their villages it can be seen as an act of piousness, because it leaves those people in a state of poverty, which is smiled upon by allah.

 

[Terri]

Thanks Live4Jesus--that is so true and so sad.

 

[Andrew]

yeah, poverty is a curse!

 

[Texas Lynn]

Thanks for two good examples of differences between our culture and others. We see similar things on a smaller scale in this country among more extreme fundamentalist types who are militantly pronatalist and encourage families with limited means to reporduce greatly. The status of women is also in play here. When women are honored and respected, poverty decreases.

You don't see that attitude in effect among the Oil Sheikhs and their families in the Muslim World, or among the Brahmins in India, though. What's that saying---"Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich."

 

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 08:10 AM Texas Lynn said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652545#post652545)

Thanks for two good examples of differences between our culture and others. We see similar things on a smaller scale in this country among more extreme fundamentalist types who are militantly pronatalist and encourage families with limited means to reporduce greatly. The status of women is also in play here. When women are honored and respected, poverty decreases.

You don't see that attitude in effect among the Oil Sheikhs and their families in the Muslim World, or among the Brahmins in India, though. What's that saying---"Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich."

Where are these people (more extreme fundamentalist type) I have never met any. Are you talking about the Amish?

Just a slice there sort of but I have truly never met any, there are weirdos everywhere you go I suppose, I wouldn't say it's neccessarily a 'christian fundamental' leaning or standard fundamental teaching by any means. that is mostly secular rhetoric far as I know, to demean christains/religion, it has absolutely no basis in truth. Just because a wierd guy is a fundamental christian doesn't earmark all fundamentals.

The Catholic church teaches the same thing btw, big families, it s more predominant there than anywhere so 'fundamental'? No not hardly. More like the opposite.

I suppose though at that rate if the types who do that are just fundamental christians... well where would black people who live in ghettos fall into that category? they are many times poor, with many kids, and hey, even a single mother. and not all are church goers. maybe racism and sexism play a part? maybe education or lack of? Keep in mind that prior to just a short half century ago, black citizens were not allowed to get an education. Though they were not technically slaves, neither were they really free. They were, and many times still are, bound to a class system and society that is not in their favor. Which has nothing at all to do with women being honored.

The caste system allows Brahmins their wealth, while maintaining that the lower castes are fine living on the streets, thats the whole point. There is no commonly felt duty to share or help the needy. Its all a matter of birthright, including poverty. The muslim shieks... I don't know... they are probably the ones sending the lower classes to battle but that is just conjecture on my part...

 

[Live4Jesus]

I had a friend came back from haiti once, never been there myself, but He goes like this 'no matter where you go... all the women are pregnant.'

So what's that? Those are hardly fundamental christians, a mixture of voodoo and catholicism being the mainstream religion down there...

 

[dignitized]

poverty CAN be a curse, but i can ALSO be a blessing St Francis as voluntarily poor and look what that did for him, the church, and the whole faith. Like it or not, poor people tend to be closer to God for one, and closer to true happiness. When you have no THINGS its hard for you to try t o find happiness and contentment in those THINGS.

By human standards - I am poor. By divine standards I am rich. I have CHRIST

 

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 05:48 PM Br. Max said this in Post #7 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=655040#post655040)

poverty CAN be a curse, but i can ALSO be a blessing St Francis as voluntarily poor and look what that did for him, the church, and the whole faith. Like it or not, poor people tend to be closer to God for one, and closer to true happiness. When you have no THINGS its hard for you to try t o find happiness and contentment in those THINGS.

By human standards - I am poor. By divine standards I am rich. I have CHRIST

Hey Br Max .. how goes it... long time no see.

I would agree, in essence perhaps only though, in regard to why people are poor here or there... not all seek God and still many are poor..

I think also, that many times, until a person hits bottom, they look to the world to fulfill their needs. when they do finally hit bottom, and the world is no longer providing for those needs, they do many times tend to seek God right there, they are out of other options.

That is assuming, they have been taught, even briefly, about the true living God. In other cultures, like hindu, those poor cannot really seek God for relief, they don't know that there is a living God that cares about them. They accept their poverty and condition as something that their god has predetermined for them, something that they MUST accept... and to move against it, in that system of belief, is actually to deny god.

So there's quite a bit of difference between cultures, and the way a person may react concerning their condition.

Hindu btw I think is the same religion that burns the wife when the husband dies, far as i know it is still done in places. consider... a woman with 5 small children, of any class, whose husband dies... she must go into the funeral fire as well, leaving the children parentless.

In the case of Islam, poverty then as one way of pleasing allah is a viscious cycle. Rising too far above takes you further from allah... and war thus can be seen as an act of piousness against one neighbors... the result being that just like that we see going on in many parts of the muslim world today, asia minor, africa... is disease, lack of sustenance, orphaned children, and lack of education, all pointing to a downward spiral rather than upward mobility.

 

[dignitized]

Christ said - the poor will be with you always. Its something that will always be. People need to stop however focusing on those who are materially poor and focus instead on those who are eternally poor.

 

[Live4Jesus]

Today at 04:22 AM Br. Max said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=655951#post655951)

Christ said - the poor will be with you always. Its something that will always be. People need to stop however focusing on those who are materially poor and focus instead on those who are eternally poor.

Br Max, you don't see these people we are discussing as being eternally poor?

 

[Andrew]

poverty CAN be a curse, but i can ALSO be a blessing

You really need to read Deu 28 and find out the difference between a curse and a blessing. Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned. Study the long list of curses in Deu 28, followed by the listings of blessings. You'll find that poverty is always in the curse section, and prosperity in the blessings section. You'll never find a poverty 'curse' in the blessings category as well.

Christ said - the poor will be with you always.

you are using that out of context. Jesus said: 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

He's certainly not saying that its good to be poor or that its a blessing. read the whole story.

 

[Rafael]

Jesus asks if we fed Him when He was hungry, clothed Him when He was naked, visited Him when He was sick, and did we give Him shelter when He was a stranger. Certainly, to love our neighbor as ourselves would be to make sure they have the basics we supply ourselves in nourishing and cherishing our bodies with food, clothing, and shelter.

Loving our neighbors as ourselves should make dramatic differences in our neighborhoods and communities, everywhere there are churches calling themselves by the Lord's name and being in obedience to His Word and example of giving expecting nothing in return.

Ephesians 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Matt. 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Blindfaith]

Didn't Jesus say that it's difficult for a rich man to enter heaven?  Yes, he did.

 

[sklippstein]

i understand what Br. Max means by poverty being both a curse or a blessing. A poor man more than likely will seek the Lord in all things....as the Lord is our source, thereby having a strong faith.

 

[dignitized]

Today at 02:09 AM Andrew said this in Post #11

You really need to read Deu 28 and find out the difference between a curse and a blessing. Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned. Study the long list of curses in Deu 28, followed by the listings of blessings. You'll find that poverty is always in the curse section, and prosperity in the blessings section. You'll never find a poverty 'curse' in the blessings category as well.



you are using that out of context. Jesus said: 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

He's certainly not saying that its good to be poor or that its a blessing. read the whole story.

<SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Matthew 19:21</SPAN>
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the <B>poor</B>, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.&nbsp;
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What is this verse saying?&nbsp; If the rich man gives all that he has to the poor what does that make him?&nbsp;

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<SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Luke 6:20</SPAN>
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye <B>poor</B>: for yours is the kingdom of God.
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Sounds like God is calling poverty a blessing here.

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<SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Revelation 3:17</SPAN>
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and <B>poor</B>, and blind, and naked:

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A wise man does not care for TEMPORAL riches which moth and rust corrupt.&nbsp;

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POVERTY is a blessing. Poverty allows a man to find comfort in GOD rather than his wealth - contentment in doing good rather than in gaining more. WEALTH is an obstacle on the road to salvation.

 

[chelcb]

Poverty is never a blessing as far as the Bible is concerned

Well how come the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, and Joesph) was poor? And how come Jesus was homeless? He said..."the birds have their nest and the foxes have their holes but the son of man has no place to lay his head?"

Jesus was poor, was he cursed??

 

[dignitized]

must have been since poverty is ***ALWAYS*** a curse!!

 

[Andrew]

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the <B>poor</B>, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.Ê

well then, have you done that? do you walk the talk? do u then despise other Christians who are rich?

What is this verse saying?Ê If the rich man gives all that he has to the poor what does that make him?Ê

yeah but dont forget Jesus also said anyone who gives up anything for him will recieve a hundred fold return IN THIS LIFE.

Mark 10:29 Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions[those against prosperity], and in the age to come eternal life.

POVERTY is a blessing. Poverty allows a man to find comfort in GOD rather than his wealth - contentment in doing good rather than in gaining more. WEALTH is an obstacle on the road to salvation.

like i said, you really need to read Deu 28 to find out the diff betw a blessing and a curse.

Well how come the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, and Joesph) was poor? And how come Jesus was homeless? He said..."the birds have their nest and the foxes have their holes but the son of man has no place to lay his head?"
Jesus was poor, was he cursed??

Jesus was never poor, except on the cross. I dont consider a man who can multiply bread to feed 5000, turn water into top quality wine, etc poor. Mary and Joseph did not remain poor after Jesus came into the picture. The Magi gave them gold, myrrh and frankincense. Do a study of the frankincense -- at that time, such fragrances were considered even more expensive than the gold.

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

If you believe so much in poverty being a blessing, then stop being a hypocrite and live like John the Baptist. Why are you still living in that nice home, sleeping on that nice comfy bed, wearing nice clothes etc.

I find Christians who speak against prosperity one of the biggest hypocrites. I debated with a man once on this topic. at the end of the session, when we go to the carpark, he drives off in a BMW. My brother spoke to another who was already earning $8000 but wanted to earn more, wanted to move to a bigger home, wanted to buy cuff-links for his nice shirts etc yet he was so against Christians prospering.

 

[chelcb]

Jesus was never poor, except on the cross. I dont consider a man who can multiply bread to feed 5000, turn water into top quality wine, etc poor. Mary and Joseph did not remain poor after Jesus came into the picture. The Magi gave them gold, myrrh and frankincense. Do a study of the frankincense -- at that time, such fragrances were considered even more expensive than the gold

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[Rafael]

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?