On Language About "Climate Change" and Global Warming" and "Pollution"

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:18

HarleyER said:

You left out this part:

Even if global warming were to stop today, sea level would continue to rise. Scientists predict that global sea level will rise between 0.3 and 1 meter by 2100.

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You left out the part where you were pushing misinformation. Are you incapable of acknowledging this?

HarleyER said:

Obviously you must be a AI denier.

Apparently it comes from Climate.Gov which states the same thing.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level

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Where does your link suggest that sea level has risen 20 inches since the year 2000s?

Here is what your weblink actually says:
Global average sea level has risen 8–9 inches (21–24 centimeters) since 1880.

Are you not able to read your own web links?

@HarleyER

HarleyER said:

Obviously you must be a AI denier.

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No. Here is what Google AI actually says about your claim:


Are you able to acknowledge that you're pushing misinformation? Or is that too hard for you to do?

HarleyER said:

Thank you for your "honest" appraisal.


Since 2000, according to climate scientists, the sea level has risen 20 inches (500 millimeters). So in roughly 25 years, the sea level has risen .5 meters. That would mean that in another 25 years it should have risen to 1 meter. And following this train of thought, that means it should give or take about 350 years to achieve what you've posted.

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This is all completely made up. Why are you making up misinformation?

The site might be glitching, I keep seeing the same text repeating.

HarleyER said:

And there in lies the issue and the agenda. Social justice to poorer nations. Globally shifting resources through governments and industries.

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Oh boy. It' gets worse.

CONSPIRACY​

On that’s right – it’s all communism to benefit the poor. Or is that a conspiracy to KEEP Africa poor? Gee – you Deniers better sort your story out – it’s hard to keep up! This is tinfoil hat stuff from 2008! Oh - and as an aside - why are Christians so against helping poorer nations develop clean energy systems that will not poison their citizens the way we do? I never quite got that mean-spirited 'anti-poor' vibe from the alt-right. Greenie conspiracy that hurts the poor?

As I have pointed out before, the conspiracy for money charge doesn't work. You and I are Calvinists. We believe in TULIP. Are not all human beings equally corruptible? Are not both government and scientists and free market and CEO's all equally corruptible by money, sex, and power?

So tell me - who is MORE motivated to be corrupt - the climatologist on maybe $120,000 or the Oil CEO on $120,000,000?

NUCLEAR WAR​

Don't tell me how I feel about things. You're on the opposite side of the planet to me. If you want to know how I actually FEEL about things, why not ask?

Full Scale Nuclear War is the most depressing and awful page on my entire environmental blog. It scares me more than climate change! But NOT the radiation! That's as bad as it has always been - trying to survive 2 weeks in a air-filtered bunker. You got one of those? I certainly don't. But those who DO survive the initial 2 weeks radiation and crawl out to the new world must then survive something far worse. The dark. Winter for 5 to 10 years! What the northern hemisphere would lose in such a scenario is just … astonishing. But possibly even worse than climate change! I’m glad the science of nuclear war concerns you. I just wish your white American evangelical culture was not so all twisted up in conspiracy theories about the important science of climate change. It's a bad witness. It's something the world must address - and Christians have a special duty of care for the poor. And you're not demonstrating that to a watching world.

WHAT AL GORE ACTUALLY SAID VS WHAT THE SCIENTISTS INVOLVED ACTUALLY SAID!​

So what did Al Gore actually say at Copenhagen COP Dec 2009?
Let's quote it.

"the north pole would be gone by 2013 and the coasts would be flooded"

See that? No if's, but's, or even qualifiers. No statistical probabilities, or comparisons between the different models and experts.

Oh - my bad. That's what you said, not what Al Gore said. You went on:-

"Meanwhile, environental alarmists such as Bill Gates, Al Gore, and Nancy Pelosis (to name a few) keep building/buying beach homes."

Nice! Because apparently wealthy older people are going to live for centuries to see their beach homes submerged? (The prediction is 1m by 2100 - remember?)

So what did Al Gore actually say?


Oh. 75% chance from Dr Maslowski, and 2030 from Bob. Even what Al Gore said - not a climate scientist himself - is more nuanced than the way you mischaracterize it!

But as others have already pointed out - it turns out sometimes Al Gore may have misunderstood the conversation he had with Maslowski a few years earlier!

A Reuters FACT CHECK from 2021 says:





NPR from 2009 confirms this.


Snopes confirms it


So Harley - do you ever check the rumours you hear in your peer group? Or are they just so convenient to your political presuppositions that you let them slip in as 'confirmation bias'?

eclipsenow said:

On that’s right – it’s all communism to benefit the poor. Or is that a conspiracy to KEEP Africa poor? Gee – you Deniers better sort your story out

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This is why I think Climate science is (now) junk science, it is simply to implement a broader political agenda by world leaders. They will tell you where you will live, what teapots, stoves, etc. you will use, what car you will drive, etc. All this is happening right now and it's all under the guise of Cimate science. It is also a distraction from more critical world events.

At one time Climate science was legit. But since the late 1970s it has been highjacked for a more broader agenda.

eclipsenow said:

Don't tell me how I feel about things. You're on the opposite side of the planet to me. If you want to know how I actually FEEL about things, why not ask?

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Yes, we are on the opposite side of the planet. So, why are you so interested in Trump vs Harris? You aren't feeling the effect of run away government spending, illegal immigants pouring across the border, the government shutting down oil and coal harvesting all the while buying the same energy sources that we have here from Arab nations and the Soviets. And yet you want the US to do more in the way of building solar panels and windmills when I don't see anyone talking about North Korea, India, or China being in compliance.

So Harley - do you ever check the rumours you hear in your peer group? Or are they just so convenient to your political presuppositions that you let them slip in as 'confirmation bias'?

Actually, I simply listen to what is being said by the World Economic Forum. They use to hide their messages and agenda. Now they are very much out in the open about wanting a one world government controled by them.

BTW-This might give you some comfort. The Bible predicted this will happen, a one world government, controlling everything, in which you will not be able to buy or sell without their approval. So, I lose. You win. But I wouldn't take too much comfort from this because there is more to the story.

HarleyER said:

This is why I think Climate science is (now) junk science, it is simply to implement a broader political agenda by world leaders. They will tell you where you will live, what teapots, stoves, etc. you will use, what car you will drive, etc. All this is happening right now and it's all under the guise of Cimate science. It is also a distraction from more critical world events.

At one time Climate science was legit. But since the late 1970s it has been highjacked for a more broader agenda.

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Except there's the climate science, and then there's what to do about the climate science.
The science itself is still the empirical method - and there's only Glacier-gate that I'm aware of that had some really junk science about it. One bad apple - and they soon weeded it out.

But as to the millions of different responses to climate science? That's where even I might disagree with some of them. If you have particular concerns - please let me know. But in general - this is going to be great. Better health, better economics, better energy independence, and long term security for when we run OUT of all these fuels!

HarleyER said:

Yes, we are on the opposite side of the planet. So, why are you so interested in Trump vs Harris?

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Because the consequences will ricocheted around the planet! First he'll disrupt the great IRA bill that's bringing jobs home to America and helping the green energy transition which will improve Health and save lives, prevent climate change, are Secure long term and will prepare you for the fact that oil and gas and coal are finite, and as EV's accelerate around 2030 - Bankrupt the Petro States. Dude - if you're a patriot - you should get on board this climate thing just for the Big 3 reasons above - even if you don't believe the fourth! Health, Climate, Secure, Bankrupt the Bad Guys!
Surely the other Big 3 are enough?

Why do you think climate science was OK before the 1970's? Did you see the Bell Telephone company Science Hour?

HarleyER said:

You aren't feeling the effect of run away government spending, illegal immigants pouring across the border, the government shutting down oil and coal harvesting all the while buying the same energy sources that we have here from Arab nations and the Soviets.

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Err, no. You're producing more oil than you ever have.



There are many different types of oil that go into different types of refineries. You do import some oil - but probably of different grades.


The fact that you import an extra net 3 million barrels (for whatever special category that is) on top of the nearly 13million barrels of oil you produce at home is spare change.

ECONOMICS: But here's the thing. Australia is the world's biggest lithium producer. That's my backyard! How about you buy some of that off me from my vast desert backyard, add it to an ever growing factory supply of battery manufacture in Uncle Sam's backyard, and we both bankrupt our enemies? We can thank coal and oil and gas for giving us the industrial revolution - but also recognise that they run out within a generation or so. It's time to act anyway! And they pollute. So what if you and I were besties, and we even shared military co-operation agreements and had closer military ties?

Oh wait - that's Bidens IRA! EG: The Inflation Reduction Act means SO many battery factories are being built now that by 2030 America would hypothetically (as a way of illustrating the sheer quantity) be able to build 18 MILLION EVs a year! That's all your new cars and more - America buys 14 million new cars each year. Tracking the EV battery factory construction boom across North America | TechCrunch (Americans buy about 55 million cars a year but the rest are second hand.) How many cars are sold each year in the U.S.? 2024 (The reality is all these batteries will be spread across various sectors - especially grid firming and backup power reserves. But you can see the potential!)

Biden has tax breaks funding all this - which will increase American building and spending on domestically produced stuff. I thought Trump promised to bring jobs home again - but it's Biden that's doing that?

MIGRANTS: I feel your pain. After the pandemic our government authorised one of the largest 2 year intakes of various migration categories in Australian history - and now we have a major housing crisis. The Labor party may lose the next election over this!
But here's the thing. Why are you blaming Kamala? Why didn't Trump have the Republican party sign off on this year's border security act?

Oh yeah. So Trump could whine all year about migrants - including the 'fact' that they're eating the dogs!

HarleyER said:

And yet you want the US to do more in the way of building solar panels and windmills when I don't see anyone talking about North Korea, India, or China being in compliance.

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Honestly mate - we've been here - done that. Go back and see. You either have comprehension issues, or are just stubbornly and dishonestly refusing to take on board new data. In either case - why would I continue to bother discussing this with you?

HarleyER said:

So Harley - do you ever check the rumours you hear in your peer group? Or are they just so convenient to your political presuppositions that you let them slip in as 'confirmation bias'?

Actually, I simply listen to what is being said by the World Economic Forum. They use to hide their messages and agenda. Now they are very much out in the open about wanting a one world government controled by them.

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Oh puuuhhhllleeaaaase!

We discovered the physics of what CO2 does before Marx ever wrote his manifesto.

HarleyER said:

BTW-This might give you some comfort. The Bible predicted this will happen, a one world government, controlling everything, in which you will not be able to buy or sell without their approval. So, I lose. You win. But I wouldn't take too much comfort from this because there is more to the story.

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No - it gives me no comfort to find yet another climate-denying white Evangelical American that fits all the stereotypes - even down to having a largely unexplored futurist eschatology.

John wrote Revelation to warn his friends that the Romans were coming - with trouble and the sword! Indeed, it had already started! John was under house arrest - and so ALREADY shared in their ‘tribulation’ (1:9). He was writing "to show his servants what must soon take place". (1:1). They were to take his message to heart (meditate on it and obey it) “for the time is near.” (Verse 3). When we do the right hermeneutics and understand how John’s generation received this message - we understand that it’s a symbolic sermon on suffering. John uses Daniel’s images of the 4 kingdoms - but all mixed up together into one huge beast - and in doing so we can see John is generalising the message - not spelling out some specific futurist timetable.

In other words, this is a general description of what life is going to be like between Jesus R&R - Resurrection & Return. So when we see the Ukraine war and see world food prices rise - that’s one example of the 4 Horsemen of war - riding out again. Revelation gets it right - as a general description. When we read of those who are tempted to trust in Babylon and her wealth - that’s you and I! It’s probably the most dangerous situation to be in spiritually. See how it works? It’s like reading any epistle: break down what was going on in their church, and apply the ethical and theological lessons as appropriate to our day and context.

But the futurist wants it to be some sort of Code all about our next 7 years. But hey - you want to talk about failed predictions - go look into that camp of Revelation futurists trying to predict how Hitler was the anti-Christ. Oh sorry - that’s the Pope! Oh sorry - we’re REALLY sure it’s Gorbachev - he’s even got that weird birthmark. Hang on - it’s Reagan. Nope, Obama…. and on and on it goes.

Finally - as IF John would write to his friends - about to see their families torn apart by lions in the arena - “You think you've got it bad? Wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!" What kind of insensitive monster do you think John was?!?

eclipsenow said:

But in general - this is going to be great. Better health, better economics, better energy independence, and long term security for when we run OUT of all these fuels!

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I remember when they said the same thing about computers. We would all be working 20 hour work week, productivity would be up, computers would solve all our problems. Then I entered the picture and caused havoc in the computer industry. (Just kidding) Instead, people failed to see what would happen when computers replaced people, lower level jobs were displaced as well as computers making life just as difficult if not better.

Now we have cell phones. No one talks to anyone any more except to send the a two line text.

And, btw, just remember oil is what produces plastics. So look around you at all those things in your house that is made of plastic and think of what will happen when (if) we run out of oil. In fact, plastic comprises 50% of an electric vehicle and about 10% of it's weight.

eclipsenow said:

Because the consequences will ricocheted around the planet!

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So what you're saying is how people insert themselves around the globe to influence other nations business. Does this seem right? I don't see nations trying to influence China or North Korea. Yes, I know we talked about them but there doesn't seem to be an answer does there? It's, oh/hum, not this old chestnut again.

eclipsenow said:

Why do you think climate science was OK before the 1970's?

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I think science at one time was, for a bit, outside the realm of politics. Scientists actually did science, and the politicians listened to those scientists. But now politics drives science. Politicians pass laws all the while investing in those areas that they mandate people to buy. So funding is steered towards those things politicians want to hear.

I know this sounds cynical, but politicians come out with multimillion dollar portfolios. And I know how government contracts are written and how companies create proposals to those contracts.

eclipsenow said:

But here's the thing. Australia is the world's biggest lithium producer. That's my backyard! How about you buy some of that off me from my vast desert backyard

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I need some AA and AAA batteries please.

eclipsenow said:

We can thank coal and oil and gas for giving us the industrial revolution - but also recognise that they run out within a generation or so. It's time to act anyway!

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Coal export from the US was up 23% last year (about 100 tons) and our biggest customer was India. We shipped 15 metric tons to China which was up five times from 2020. So coal usage hasn't dimished. Instead it is on the rapid rise. It is estimated that the US has about 250 billion tons of recoverable coal, enough to last 420 years.

As far as oil, there seems to be plenty of this as well.

United States Oil​

Summary Table​

(Data shown is for 2016, the latest year with complete data in all categoreies)


So I'm not sure why you would think we are running out within a generation unless you feel you're going to live to be 400 years.

eclipsenow said:

John wrote Revelation to warn his friends that the Romans were coming - with trouble and the sword! Indeed, it had already started! John was under house arrest - and so ALREADY shared in their ‘tribulation’ (1:9).

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Yes, I’ve seen this view. But, just supposed your eschatology view is incorrect.

Others have given a completely different outlook that events eerily seem to fit with their scenario. Israel has reformed. A world government is starting to form (despite what you believe). And hostilities towards Israel have increased. I usually don’t fit Scripture into current events as this is dangerous. However, many of these interpretations were made in the 1800s. And, even though I’m an Amillennialist, I do see the same patterns.

You discount the World Economic Forum as though it is nothing. Here is just a snippet of the WEF agenda on YouTube by Klaus Schwab who is the head of the WEF which members are high power business leaders and politicians.


One can simply look up more of these on YouTube to verify what I say is true.

You, and many others, are being sucked into a political movement to reshape the world. One of the ways they are doing this is to control what you believe. You are in the Matrix. You can take the blue pill and the story ends. Or you can take the red pill and stay in Wonderland.

COMPUTERS: Yep, plenty to think about with computers and how the cell phone digital life is affecting us. Our church just did a whole program on the implications for the Christian life. On the danger of only exposing ourselves to certain 'echo-chambers' that reflect back what we want to hear! That sort of thing.
But your scepticism about certain promises made in one area of technology has no bearing on a completely different kind of technology.

PLASTICS: Massive seaweed farms can feed the world and supply us with bioplastics, as can other crops. Indeed - if the oil processing uses clean energy we might be able to reduce CO2 emissions used from conventional oil refineries - although they will be reconfigured to produce more of these and less gasoline and diesel.

INTERNATIONAL CONVERSATIONS: I'm having this conversation with you - and I'm open about being Australian. Unlike some of the Russians who have funded Trump sympathetic youtube channels to the tune of millions! Two RT Employees Indicted For Covertly Funding And Directing U.S. Company That Published Thousands Of Videos In Furtherance Of Russian Interests

ESCHATOLOGY:
Today's Israel has nothing to do with the bible prophecies. They were all fulfilled under the Persian king Cyrus who sent them home to rebuild the Temple - just in time for Jesus to turn up and fulfil what the REAL temple was all about. That is - everything in the OT points forward to the gospel and fulfils what the "True Israel" was meant to live like, true prophets were meant to say, and the true sacrifice and true temple was meant to be. Now in the NT WE - us the church - are the living temple. There's simply nothing left eschatologically to be fulfilled. 5 seconds - or 50,000 things.

WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM: Dude - if you can't admit the science of climate change checks out - with all the evidence we have that people who are bothering to look can see with their own eyes - the LAST thing I'm going to do is discuss an abstract concept like the World Economic Forum!
Climate change is .... Science. Physics. Demonstrable. Recordable.

And you just don't want to 'believe' it because it's not convenient to your politics. I'm not in the Matrix - you're in a Denial eco-chamber where you feel all warm and snug - and don't need to deal with any pesky reality.

HarleyER said:

all the while buying the same energy sources that we have here from Arab nations and the Soviets.

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Facts

HarleyER said:

I don't see anyone talking about North Korea, India, or China being in compliance.

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Facts

HarleyER said:

And, btw, just remember oil is what produces plastics. So look around you at all those things in your house that is made of plastic and think of what will happen when (if) we run out of oil. In fact, plastic comprises 50% of an electric vehicle and about 10% of it's weight.

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Most of our entire infrastructure would have to be wiped out because of these facts. And yet people think it's just going to magically happen and we will have a new way of life. When in reality things will pretty much go on as before but we continue to pay for things that will never happen.

HarleyER said:

You, and many others, are being sucked into a political movement to reshape the world

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That's the biggest thing. I believe so as well. If Harris gets in I believe the world is getting closer to that reality.

That's why I think it's very dangerous to get too conformed to this present world/age.

JulieB67 said:

Facts

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NOT FACTS!
I think I misread a source the other day when responding to Harley on this.
Seriously - do alt-right types EVER try to read the ACTUAL FACTS before they just chime in with agreement on the consensus trance?
Here are the facts. You actually exported more oil than you imported! You're a net EXPORTER of oil to the world!
Now, while I'm no industrial chemist - I can tell you there are many different qualities of oil - and different kinds of refineries they go in. Just as you don't put diesel in a gasoline car, you don't put the wrong quality of oil in the wrong refinery.

So you buy some oil from Saudi Arabia. Do you know how much? The way you and Harley are talking you've GIVEN AWAY all your best stuff overseas, and the Biden administration are forcing you to single-handedly prop up Putin and Saudi Arabia! Yeah right!

FIRST - don't you know there's a BAN on Russian oil from the G7? These are the countries that still buy from Russia. Tracking the impacts of G7 & EU’s sanctions on Russian oil – Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air
Yours is not one of them! Otherwise - why do you think the EU and world had such a massive oil and gas price rise? What do you think was one of the main reasons for the global energy crisis? Have you HEARD of the war in Ukraine?

SECOND - do you know how much oil you PRODUCE? You're pumping more than Saudi Arabia! You're doing 12.9 MILLION barrels a day!

Compare THAT to how much you buy from Canada - which is 4.42 million barrels a day. Canada is 52% of all the oil you import.
Saudi Arabia is 0.44 mbd - or 5% of the oil you import. You import 440,000 barrels from Saudi Arabia. That's only 3.9% of the 12,900,000 barrels you produce every day!

So - NOT FACT!

JulieB67 said:

Facts

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Not facts. Others have responded here about how the world IS demanding all these nations do their part.
Indeed - China has not had their proper turn at the fossil fuel party. They have 1.3 billion people and use a FRACTION of the fossil fuels per capita that us first world nations have historically. How DARE Americans - who have 5% of the population and yet use 25% of the world's oil - turn around and point the finger at others that use a tiny fraction? I mean - how broken would our climate be if AMERICA had 1.3 BILLION PEOPLE living that entitled lifestyle? We'd already be at 4 or 6 degrees of warming - and may have already had a full scale ecological breakdown with the American breadbasket drying up and blowing away!

Instead - China realised A: they didn't have any decent oil of their own and B: global oil reserves were starting to run down AND climate change was a thing so C: they'd better get the jump on the future tech - and are now the world's only viable EV car manufacturer. The EU and USA just have not woken up to this reality yet. Even I.R.A cannot save American EV's - I think Tesla's days as an EV manufacturer are numbered.

EG: China's CATL battery company have 22 THOUSAND experts in R&D alone. Just their research department!
People just cannot imagine the scale of what is happening in China! Their energy transition is 6 years AHEAD of schedule - and they're going to sell all the wind and solar and EV's they can to the rest of the world.

Yet YOU point your finger at THEM as not doing enough! Ha ha - wow. "Denial" as they say "is NOT a river in Egypt!"

JulieB67 said:

Most of our entire infrastructure would have to be wiped out because of these facts. And yet people think it's just going to magically happen and we will have a new way of life. When in reality things will pretty much go on as before but we continue to pay for things that will never happen.

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Oh give me a break! Your echoing Harley's lies above shows you do not even know basic facts about the world. Like:-
How much oil is in the world anyway? How long can this 'party' go on - even if there was no climate change?
How many people die HORRIBLE suffocating deaths from throat and lung cancers each year from burning fossil fuels? How much does that cost your health system?
How many generations of Americans lived quite successful and happy lives before plastic was even a thing? In what areas could we CUT plastic use before it even really made an impact on modern life?
I agree plastic is important in some sectors, and am grateful for it. But have you ever googled how we're going to make plastic without oil? I'm no scientist. I have a welfare and humanities background. But I try to watch our ABC's Catalyst (science show) once a week just to keep up, because AMAZING things are happening all the time!

"but we continue to pay for things that will never happen."

Ha ha ha - you really have no idea do you?
OK Julie B - just make sure you invest BIG in oil shares - they're going to be a MAJOR investment by 2030. This random guy on the internet said so!

JulieB67 said:

That's the biggest thing. I believe so as well. If Harris gets in I believe the world is getting closer to that reality.

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Ha ha ha! Do you know what the I.R.A. is? (And I'm not talking about Ireland.)
Do you KNOW what it has done for the American economy?
For Australia?

JulieB67 said:

That's why I think it's very dangerous to get too conformed to this present world/age.

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Now you're equating your Denial of empirically demonstrable climate science with "being spiritual" or "heavenly minded" - while calling being excited about the social and health AND environmental benefits of the Energy Transition with being 'worldly'. Honestly! I know the difference between all this stuff and our gospel hope. But it's not either / or!

As Christians we have an ethical obligation to work hard and be constructive.
To share the gospel in both our words and our lifestyles.
To love God with all our heart mind and strength - and love our neighbour as ourselves.

Now - please answer this? (You've avoided all the other points I've put to you in previous posts!)

How are we loving them if we poison them? How are we loving them if we are 'salting their earth' so they cannot grow crops - not by invading and spreading physical salt around as ancient empires did as curse - but by busting up the climate stability we've enjoyed this past 10,000 years?

We also have a duty to be honest. To value truth and integrity.
I'm not seeing it here in the alt-right.
Now all that, all my words above?

Facts​

(But because these facts do not conform to you political worldviews - you'll ignore them as you ignored everything else that is full of 'inconvenient truths'. It's a documented psychological phenomenon amongst climate Deniers! TALK ABOUT being conformed to the values of this world!)

eclipsenow said:

As Christians we have an ethical obligation

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Please, spare me your lecture on ethics when comes to Christianity. As I stated I vote my conscience. The dems are far more interested in social issues than anything else. Getting transgenders in the bathrooms, sports, while breaking down other's religious rights. Giving illegals more rights than their own citizens, etc. Most women that seek (there are a few exceptions) abortions see it as a convenient opportunity rather than out of desperation. You don't live here so you don't see how the shift is moving away from God rather than towards. Christians are being sued for their beliefs when trying to hold onto them when it comes to certain businesses and so on. Children are being taught stories by drag queens and for what purpose? They are being slowly groomed to accept what is not acceptable to God. And yet somehow, these issues aren't important where God is concerned, only the climate?? That's ridiculous. Especially seeing God's promise on the climate and his feelings about other issues -many he calls abominations. Yet, let's just jump right into bed with those who support these abominations in order to save a climate that he states will stay the same (cold, hot, seed time, etc) while the earth remains. Again, ridiculous.

Kamala Harris did not even win a primary. How convenient. And yet the right is a danger to democracy?? She can't even answer simple questions on what she will do for the economy and she's been in office for 4 years. Sorry if I don't see climate change on the top of my priority as you do.
As Margaret Thatcher once stated, socialism doesn't work because you eventually run out of other people's money.

This was a fact

the government shutting down oil and coal harvesting all the while buying the same energy sources that we have here from Arab nations and the Soviets.

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My point wasn't about who exports/imports more oil, etc. The point is we could become more independent by not shutting down certain resources which in the long run would help the economy.


You act as if many of us are in love with pollution, etc. That's not it. I just don't believe that before Christ returns, it will turn into "global warming such as that the climate would drastically change to the point where God's promise is not true. Disasters happen, droughts, bad crops happen, etc. But it will never change to the extant that the weather will not produce all the seasons and seed times as a whole.

eclipsenow said:

To love God with all our heart mind and strength

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You can't have it both ways. God would not want transgenders period, let alone in the bathrooms. He would not support the sexualization of children, same sex marriage and the list goes on. Those are some of the most important issues on the agenda's left. And no matter what you believe a vote for the left is a vote for a woman to choose abortion -at any time and so on. Supporting these issues is most definitely not loving God with all your heart and soul and mind. Quite the opposite. No offense but it seems as if you are omitting the God part of the equation in the guise of loving your neighbor as yourself by supporting climate change which God promises won't change. You are leaving out very important issues that are an abomination to God. So how is that loving him? It's not.

We will continue to believe differently on this subject....

Hi Julie,
'PROGRESSIVE' ISSUES: I agree with a lot of what you're saying. There is a cultural shift. The Democrats are a huge umbrella covering a whole bunch of issues. But you're exaggerating the extend to which those issues are dominating everything. And while the Wedding Cake case went to the Supreme Court - how was it resolved? That's what is important.

ABORTION: Convenience? Maybe. But read the links I supplied. There are coutnries where it is ILLEGAL - nationwide - and yet it is 4 TIMES more common than in the USA. And the EU has HALF your abortion rates! Why?!?

CLIMATE & BIBLE: YOU KEEP IGNORING THIS QUESTION! Why did Genesis contadict itself then? The main emphasis? "Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
He's saying never again will he 'uncreate' the world and return it to the watery chaos of pre-creation. Now let's read your favourite section.
"And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done. Genesis 8:22 “As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, will never cease.”"

CLIMATE CHANGE WILL ERADICATE NONE OF THESE!
FIRST - in case you hadn't noticed it - climate change is an increase in heat, not a flood.

SECOND - NONE OF THESE HAVE TO CEASE FOR CLIMATE CHANGE TO BE TRUE! Some of their parameters will cease - like growing grain will be down 25% by 2050. But ceased? No. Nothing like Joseph's famine when the WHOLE KNOWN WORLD ran out of ALL grain for 7 years?
You have either just avoided this inconvenient biblical truth - or just cannot comprehend any of this.
If YOU'RE the one asserting any of these have to be contradicted for climate change, YOU'RE the one who has to prove it!
"he states will stay the same (cold, hot, seed time, etc) while the earth remains." He didn't say that the way YOU mean it - he said he would not UNCREATE the world AGAIN the way he did in the flood. Read the text! IF he literally meant those words in the FULL extent of those words as YOU are misreading it - then Genesis contradicts itself! "Seedtime will never fail" - except the 3 times it fails in Genesis alone - and one of those lasting 7 years across the whole known world!

TRUMP is an awful danger to democracy. He and his Project 2025 are both trying to undermine the competency and impartiality of the public service - especially the DOJ. Dozens of psychiatrists have diagnosed him as having Malignant Personality Disorder. And former staff from his office are BEGGING you not to vote for him! People who worked with and for him! He asked his advisers why police couldn't just shoot protesters in the legs. He wanted to build a MOAT at the Mexican border and fill it with alligators and reptiles. A moat! In the desert, across 2000 miles. Really? I doubt your entire military budget for a DECADE could get that thing built! The guy just isn't smart enough for the office, let alone stable. Yet he describes himself to his worshipping MAGA followers as a "very stable genius" - and in other moments he has trouble forming sentences!

BACK TO NOAH: Then you say you don't believe


I agree! That's what climatologist Katharyn Hayhoe and I have been trying to say all along? EG: How is a 25% reduction in crops by 2050 any worse than Joseph's famine?

Also - what is God's promise to us about this period between Jesus Resurrection and his Return? Have you READ Revelation? Can't see any scorching sun events in there? Crop issues? Droughts? 4 Horsemen? The thing is - Revelation describes these as judgements from God. But what is the means of delivery? We read in Romans that God often hands us over to the consequences of our own actions.


Oh wow! Yeah - ban anyone 'different'. There's the love of Christ for you! Hey - how about those black people as well? They're a bit different!
Look - I know God made us male and female. I know he does not approve of any sexual behaviour outside of marriage. But does God love gay people? YES! And they can be Christian if they decide to be celibate. And some LOVE the church for loving them - as they've had issues with different relationships and abandonment. Sometimes abandonment in childhood - having trauma from an absent father - is part of why they ended up in the gay community seeking male love etc. Now, what I'm about to say is quite controversial. I'm NOT talking about 'gay conversion therapy.' But I know some gay people that have even noticed their sexuality swinging back to heterosexual wiring after some years of living as a celibate Christian and having counselling for their abandonment issues.

Also - would you welcome a transgender person to your church? Please - while doing some housework or gardening or going on a walk - Julie I'd love to hear your perspective on this podcast. The host is a keen Christian man who I've worked with in Australia, who now lives in the USA. I miss seeing him - as John Dickson "currently holds the Jean Kvamme Distinguished Chair at Wheaton College, Illinois, where he is also Distinguished Scholar in Public Christianity."

CHURCH & STATE: Read Romans. He spends the whole book explaining that the law does not save. Now I know that's the Mosaic Law - but I fear many today think that if we just enacted the Old Testament law in our lands - we are doing God's work. But really? We are saved by grace for good works, but told to live compassionately with unbelievers. Not to lock them up for being unbelievers. In other words - the New Testament sees Christians living alongside other people of other faiths or no faiths - loving and serving them.

Christian Nationalism - or should I say - Mosaic Nationalism - was an Old Testament thing to show us how worldly governance systems are not going to save us. It taught us that we're too sinful to obey the laws ourselves and be 'good enough'. A thousand years of animal sacrifice and blood pouring out of the temple did not pay for sin. Only Jesus, and faith in Jesus, saves.

So what of government? Should we have government enact the 10 commandments and ban other religions and practices? No!

Our tools are preaching, prayer, service and suffering. What New Testament verses can you point to that say we are going to form government? What are Paul's commands for the constitution? When does this happen? No! His focus is the gospel. Indeed - in Romans 13 he said:


Just THINK about what Pau's Roman taxes went to paying for! Building more temples to Jupiter - or Caesar himself! Yet Paul sees ANY kind of law and order as better than chaos. He said not only to pay the taxes but to honour those who govern! Now tell me what laws Rome had on sexuality and bathrooms?

Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”, and Paul said we are to judge matters in the church - but who are we to judge outside the church? That’s up to God. Paul also didn’t want anyone to be compelled, but fully settled in their own mind.
That means Christians can fight for counter intuitive things like freedom of religion in a society. I should defend a Muslim’s right to worship as much as my own. This is my favourite Christian podcast - simply one of the best in the world. And this is a great episode.
This is not 'woke'. This is the gospel of Jesus that sometimes asks us to love others - even if they're outside our comfort zone. Because God loved them first. That's the God we serve - and having typed those last few sentences - I need to confront something uncomfortable in my own personal life today!

I honestly hope all this helps Julie B. I agree that NO party is perfect - and indeed - voting is a process one does holding one's nose. I do NOT think voting for Trump or even the Republican Party is a "Christian" thing to do. Indeed, even if the whole world were Christian - I still think we would have major differences in how we thought we should run things - and there would be political parties.
My vibe? Vote for the party that is going to do "less harm". That's it! And the Democrats are not the ones talking about building concentration camps for vulnerable immigrants, massively expanding polluting fossil fuel industries in the face of climate change, pollution deaths and costs, ecological areas ruined, and propping up Petro-Dictators! Remember - fossil fuel pollution is SO BAD you pay for it once in your electricity bill or at the petrol pump, and then the same amount again in EXTRA health costs and insurance costs because of all the people sick from it.

The sane, compassionate and indeed - PATRIOTIC thing to do this election is vote Democrat. Voting Republican will increase abortion, increase pollution, increase health costs, increase civil strife, prolong Petro-Dicators in the world - and most of all - increase the risk of nuclear war! Trump is weirdly obsessed with Putin - and kept calling him even when voted out of government. He's admitted as much himself. If Trump got back in Putin might feel so overconfident he crosses some red line in Europe!
You're worried about climate change contradicting Noah's promises? Tell me - have you seen this 4 minute breakdown of the latest science on nuclear war?

The latest science on nuclear war shows it would be unimaginably worse than we all imagine. 360 million people would die in the first hour - but in the years after? 4 minutes of youtube breaking down the latest science. I pray that EVERY politician on the planet could this presentation - maybe every 6 months - as part of their workplace compliance training!
Here is 11 minutes from Kurzgesagt “In a nutshell” - another very popular youtube channel - with such quality summary videos that they have 23 million subscribers.

eclipsenow said:

But you're exaggerating the extend to which those issues are dominating everything

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I'm not exaggerating the fact that this country is moving away from God, rather than towards. As a Christian, that's my main concern. Sign of the times for sure but I still don't have to give in personally.

eclipsenow said:

ABORTION: Convenience? Maybe. But read the links I supplied. There are coutnries where it is ILLEGAL - nationwide - and yet it is 4 TIMES more common than in the USA. And the EU has HALF your abortion rates! Why?!?

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What do the statistics have to do with my conscience and beliefs? Nothing. God looks at us individually and tries our hearts and minds. It's so obvious you are much too tied to this present world/age.

Again, a vote for the left is a show of support for abortion.

eclipsenow said:

then Genesis contradicts itself! "Seedtime will never fail" - except the 3 times it fails in Genesis alone - and one of those lasting 7 years across the whole known world!

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And yet here we are after all this time with cold, hot, summer, winter and seed time. He meant as a whole and that's still true today.

eclipsenow said:

Oh wow! Yeah - ban anyone 'different'

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If you don't see a problem with a man/boy in a womens/girls restroom and vice versa that's on you. But it's getting ridiculous, people getting fired over not using the right pronouns, etc.

eclipsenow said:

There's the love of Christ for you!

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I happen to love all -whatever goes on with everyone is between them and God. But I still don't have to personally support issues that are against my beliefs. Also in the past years we've seen that certain people and people on the left cry acceptance but then they turn out to be the most intolerable of all. I'm all about live and let live until someone infringes on my Christianity and beliefs.

First it was about "we just want to be be accepted and live our lives like everyone else" Now that's turned into hatred and invading other's rights and beliefs. Not all, I hate to generalize everyone but that is the case for some. And yes some on the other side are intolerant to an extreme as well but I can only control myself and what I deem as right for me personally and my walk with God.
And again some are slowly grooming children as well to accept things that are not acceptable to God. That is one of the more scariest issues going on in the world today.

eclipsenow said:

how about those black people as well? They're a bit different!

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That's going a little too far. I happen to live in an interracial family. I have a black brother in law and mixed nephews and nieces on both of mine and my husbands side. So that has nothing to do with my Christianity and beliefs.

And if you don't have an issue with certain things that's between you and God, not me. Again, I'm all about let live, love one another but I don't have to support issues that are totally against my Christian beliefs. And I can see the shift away from God. All the while being more intolerant of Christians yet showing tolerance to other religions.
We are all on our own journey and it's only ourselves that we can bring to Judgement Day.

eclipsenow said:

. But does God love gay people?

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I never stated he didn't. It's the sin that's the abomination.

eclipsenow said:

Indeed, even if the whole world were Christian -

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You're missing my point. No one is stating the entire world will ever be Christian and that's what I'm striving for. Realistically, we know that will never happen until Christ returns. But again, God judges us individually and that's the basis I live in. We are told to come out of babel/confusion of this present age. And that's all it is really. And loving my neighbor as myself all the while planting seeds when possible. I would want that for everyone. Because in the end, God our Father and Christ are the constant.

eclipsenow said:

. I agree that NO party is perfect

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You're right and that's why my husband and I are independents who lean right because of our conservative and Christian values. And if the world hates us then I guess we're doing something right because Christ stated they would. But I'm not voting for a husband, I'm voting for a president. And I have the advantage of seeing both parties in office and the economy was better, taxes were better, grocery bill was certainly a lot better when Trump was in office. (before Covid naturally ) I'm not even a diehard Trump fan as many are but I cannot vote for the progressive left. That's like a slap to our Father imo.

On the other side of the spectrum we have wars going on once again, the border is insane and groceries are at an all time high -all of that under the Biden/Harris administration and I'm supposed to want 4 more years??

Sorry, but that's the reality I personally live in as do many others.
Again no side is perfect, especially in this day and age - far from it. I'm almost at the point where I don't want to vote because I can see those facts. But you and I certainly differ on which is the lesser evil as far as Christianity is concerned

I find this language a bit too personally judgemental. You don't know me. Imagine if I just said "It's SO OBVIOUS you are much too tied to Pharisaic Legalism that just wants to change some words on a legal document - and does not care about the impact on women, society at large, or the image of the gospel. Where's your Christian compassion and grace? A vote for the right is a vote for a sentimental view of a golden past that never actually existed in the first place. MAGA is a cult - and you've been sucked in!"
That's a bit what it is like discussing this with you.
Look - I don't know you in the real world. If I did - and we were not discussing this but maybe the morning's talk at church and what's happening with family and kids and stuff - we'd probably get along! But this tone you are taking? It's very judgemental, and - to be honest - it's very American!

Australian Christians care about abortion. Australian Christians don't like it at all! But for some reason - maybe it's cultural - but we are prepared to listen to various sources of information on practical answers that reduce it!

Americans seem to feel like if they can JUST get the squiggles on a legal parchment changed, angel music will sweep down from the heavens and across the land and restore 1950's America or something. Or worse - Gilead from "Handmaid's Tale".


What just happened? Do you understand you've not comprehended what is actually IN GENESIS?


Yeah - um - there could be some of that. On the other hand, if I voted MAGA I'd be voting for racism, internment camps, and a self-righteous Christian right that just wants to judge everyone and not welcome human beings and try to understand what is happening for them.
Have you ever been depressed? Needed meds? Had Christians judge you for this? How is being depressed your fault if the neuro-chemistry in your brain got a bit out of step with the delicate dance of various systems that co-ordinate your 'mood'? Just as some Christians judge fellow-Christians with depression, others judge those that might have been born gay or who are experiencing gender dysmorphia. And while the gay or trans person might genuinely be delighted to meet Jesus and experience his forgiveness and live a holy life for him in celibacy - they can't get past the judgemental attitude of the church. Trans issues are quite rare - only 1% of the church - and yet many American churches are better funded than Aussie sports fields - and could easily afford to have male and female toilets and one individual disabled toilet that could also work for any 'trans' issues!

Yes - I agree that trans progressive stuff in education can sometimes go too far. The modern agenda says we are NOT to tolerate everyone - but to CELEBRATE everyone. That crosses the line for me!

But an automatic rejection by alt-right MAGA types of someone who could become my fellow citizen of heaven - just because they have a psychiatric condition that is almost impossible to fix! - is just not acceptable. It's pharisaic. I hope you listen to that podcast.


Well said! YES! THIS! I want to live in a tolerant society. You seem to be saying that tolerance isn't enough these days. Is that the bit that crosses the line - where social progressives in the last decade or so have insisted tolerance is not enough - because it implies some kind of disagreement - so it's now got to be CELEBRATING the Mardi Gra or whatever? I agree. That's where I also draw the line. And I apologise for the "how about those black people" line - but I was trying to be provocative because so much of what I have said is just ignored. I was really hoping you would listen to John Dickson. He's not a 'liberal progressive' Christian on social issues - but he is gospel focussed.

DEPRESSION AS ILLUSTRATION: Some Christians have been known to get judgemental about people with depression for "not having enough faith" to make it go away. They should just "focus on the Lord" and manufacture more "joy in the Lord!" If the depression continues - there must be some sin in their life. Talk about Job's advisers! They want SIMPLISTIC ANSWERS to life's difficult questions.

In a similar way, some think that because homosexuality is a sin, so is just being born wired to be same-sex attracted. But that seems to sometimes be a permanent wiring issue in the brain. We live in a fallen world that has impacted our very hardware. So let's JUDGE THEM!

Oh - and how many of the men RANTING against homosexual people they don't understand - who might be seeking real love in the Lord and repent if only they had a decent Christian friend who accepted them - how many of these Pharisees go home and go to the wrong sorts of websites after dark? If you know what I mean? Lust is lust, whether gay or straight. It's outside of marriage. How hypocritical of the straight guy to be judgmental like that! What was that about the speck in your brother's eye?


I used to work in Child Protection. I only lasted 18 months because every manila folder or file on my desk was a child's life in my hands - and we just were not getting the support and staff we needed to do the work. I've studied Career Paedophiles in my time. But while these sick people might try to bend the culture - and there are some uber-extremists in some parts of the Democratic party - that does not invalidate the whole party just as MAGA having some crazy racists might otherwise invalidate the entire Republican party!

You guys mainly have 2 parties. Australia has more - so what they stand for can be clearer. But what many Americans don't have is the ability to recognise that while there are extremes under both left and right umbrellas - those extremes don't run the entire party! They should not even really represent it. Except - having stated that - I'm not sure it's true of the right? Tell me if I'm wrong - but isn't Trump going to build concentration camps for MILLIONS of immigrants and get the military involved in rounding them up?

What does that sound like to you?

"And if the world hates us then I guess we're doing something right because Christ stated they would."

I know too many Christians who have used that one-liner to justify being quite obnoxious about things they know nothing about. Blindly dismissing climate change based on a completely inconsistent reading of Genesis can be one of those things that drives the unchurched NUTS - especially with MAGA types. It just makes Christianity look stupid.

GENESIS: I'm not convinced you've been honest with yourself about what's going on in Genesis in Joseph's famine of 7 years - and how on a per capita basis - that was a MASSIVE FAMINE that dwarfs anything predicted to come our way from climate change. You do NOT get to (rationally) claim Genesis 8 against climate change and then ignore the rest of the very same book - let alone all the other famines in the Old Testament, New Testament, and especially Revelation! The main bit you ignore? Like many with confirmation bias that is messing up their ability to comprehend something - it's the context.

Genesis 8 is NOT a promise against the natural disasters we read about in the rest of the bible. You have agreed as much yourself - there will be natural disasters. Genesis 8 is NOT a promise against the statistically increased probability of these things occurring.

The general vibe? God will not UNCREATE the world again. Before mentioning that there will always be SOME cold and SOME grain - God's promise says this.
"And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done."
ALL. LIVING. CREATURES.
Sorry - which IPCC model for 2050 shows that scenario? 2100? 2300?
The problem with this 'climate change thing' you're disagreeing with? You've got this great big strawman of it in your imagination. You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about or actually disagreeing with.

FINALLY - the ECONOMY: Seriously? You just 'believe' Trump when he continually patronises his MAGA audience grieving the 'lost greatness' of America and lamenting how bad the economy is?

It's all a lie.
Rather than just believing the lying man, look up some actual data!
America is KILLING IT economically!
AND it's largely because of Bidenomics!

eclipsenow said:

I find this language a bit too personally judgemental.

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Sorry, just trying to defend my stance on not caving when it comes to standing up for my Christianity and not being too tied to this present world age.

eclipsenow said:

. MAGA is a cult - and you've been sucked in!"

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That I can safely say will never happen. God's on the throne and that's who lean to. As I stated here in the US, both sides have their faults and I'm no diehard Trump fan but I still have to vote how I feel I'm led. You feel differently.

eclipsenow said:

But this tone you are taking?

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I'm not trying to have a tone. It's hard to gauge that type of thing online. I'm honestly tired of defending standing up for issues that I know God himself is against. And as a Christian, I shouldn't have to. Yes, we are to love one another but that doesn't mean have to support certain issues that we know are totally anti Christian.

eclipsenow said:

America is KILLING IT economically!

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Tell that to those of us who's wages have still not caught up to what we are spending at the grocery line. That's my reality, not what certain statistics state.

You don't understand that I'm not asking you to vote for abortion but against it. I'm asking for you to understand that a well funded welfare state is the only way to ACTUALLY lower it.

I am a skeptic as well. Not that climate change is not real but that governments especially western ones are serious about it and that they are acting out of ignorance as far as what exactly is climate change and what should be done about it.

40 years ago scientists got it so wrong when they were making these outrageous claims about sea levels rising 100 feet. They did the same 20 years ago. So people are skeptical of what is being claimed now.

Not just that its like climate change itself became a religion and people were so fixated on making it everything they forgot how they were ruining the planet in other ways. Even the solutions for addressing climate change were themselves causing pollution and harm to the planet.

Society never learns. They think they are fixing one problem and create 2 new ones along the way. The obsession to go all green no matter what has actually caused many to suffer right here and now with expensive energy costs and higher costs of living.

But can green energy really save us. I means its wind and sun isn't it. Many nations have little to no sun or room for windmills or solar panels. Then there is the massive battery storage of energy and the waste that comes from this. There will by battery waste sky high.

People say neuclear is the best and cleanest option. But many are hestitant of possible fallout.