On Imputed Righteousness

[Monk Brendan]

Righteousness comes from God, not man. But it is not imputed. That is like wearing a hair shirt matted with feces under a white tuxedo. It is just as nasty. With God to help you, you must FIRST remove the hair shirt and be washed yourself BEFORE you can put on your white tuxedo. Substituting Jesus' righteousness for your own smelly hair shirt is the only way to be pure. Otherwise the hair shirt is still just as smelly, and you are just as impure, even though you're covered in the Blood of Jesus.

God will not allow any impure thing into heaven. Lev 20:7 . Therefore, God cannot allow that smelly hair shirt into heaven, and if you cling to it by believing in "Imputed Righteousness" you, yourself will not be allowed into heaven. At the end of things, when there is only heaven and hell, if you don't end up in heaven, where will you end up?

Christ is risen!

 

[chevyontheriver]

Righteousness comes from God, not man. But it is not imputed. That is like wearing a hair shirt matted with feces under a white tuxedo. It is just as nasty. With God to help you, you must FIRST remove the hair shirt and be washed yourself BEFORE you can put on your white tuxedo. Substituting Jesus' righteousness for your own smelly hair shirt is the only way to be pure. Otherwise the hair shirt is still just as smelly, and you are just as impure, even though you're covered in the Blood of Jesus.

God will not allow any impure thing into heaven. Lev 20:7 . Therefore, God cannot allow that smelly hair shirt into heaven, and if you cling to it by believing in "Imputed Righteousness" you, yourself will not be allowed into heaven. At the end of things, when there is only heaven and hell, if you don't end up in heaven, where will you end up?

Christ is risen!

If what is imputed is not actual, then the one doing the imputing is lying. That's how I read my OT. Judges can only impute based on reality, saying that the innocent are innocent or the guilty are guilty. Scales must measure true. Coins must be true. An 'imputed' righteousness that is not an actual righteousness is an evil thing. God makes you righteous, not just providing a cover over unrighteousness.

 

[-57]

Righteousness comes from God, not man. But it is not imputed. That is like wearing a hair shirt matted with feces under a white tuxedo. It is just as nasty. With God to help you, you must FIRST remove the hair shirt and be washed yourself BEFORE you can put on your white tuxedo. Substituting Jesus' righteousness for your own smelly hair shirt is the only way to be pure. Otherwise the hair shirt is still just as smelly, and you are just as impure, even though you're covered in the Blood of Jesus.

God will not allow any impure thing into heaven. Lev 20:7 . Therefore, God cannot allow that smelly hair shirt into heaven, and if you cling to it by believing in "Imputed Righteousness" you, yourself will not be allowed into heaven. At the end of things, when there is only heaven and hell, if you don't end up in heaven, where will you end up?

Christ is risen!

2nd Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

My sins were imputed to christ Jesus and His righteousness was imputed to me.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Judges can only impute based on reality, saying that the innocent are innocent or the guilty are guilty.

Sorry, but judges judge, not impute. Your sins, indeed, the worlds sin, covered over the righteousness of Jesus making him appear to be sinful? If that was true, then we would still be wearing that smelly old hair shirt.

Our righteousness comes from Christ. He did not only cover up that hair shirt, He took it away from us, and He substituted it for His white robe. When He died, He was a substitute for our lives. If He had just imputed righteousness, He would not have had to die.

 

[stuart lawrence]

If you have been made alive with Christ, have you not been made righteous in Gods sight?

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgression/ sin. It is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:5

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you have been made alive with Christ, have you not been made righteous in Gods sight?

You would think so. There is a whole swath of Protestantism that says it isn't so

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sorry, but judges judge, not impute.

Yes, carelessness in not using the correct word. They declare innocence or guilt. They are required to declare what really is, a finding based on reality. Or they are unjust judges.

Your sins, indeed, the worlds sin, covered over the righteousness of Jesus making him appear to be sinful? If that was true, then we would still be wearing that smelly old hair shirt.

I never said or implied that. The stinky shirt is gone.

Our righteousness comes from Christ. He did not only cover up that hair shirt, He took it away from us, and He substituted it for His white robe. When He died, He was a substitute for our lives. If He had just imputed righteousness, He would not have had to die.

I'm agreeing with you, however inarticulately. I think you expected a disagreement.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You would think so. There is a whole swath of Protestantism that says it isn't so

It is natural to the human mind, you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. And people carry that over into their Christianity.
You dont have to first get rid of the sin before you are made righteous in Gods sight. He declares you righteous even when you are steeped in sin/ a slave of sin. Then he changes you as you trust in Christ your Saviour.
If you have to get rid of your sin in order to be righteous before God, your righteousness is observing the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.
But no matter how many times Paul states the believer has no righteousness/ justification of observing the law, as you say, there is a whole swathe of protestants ( and catholics) who refuse to believe it

 

[stuart lawrence]

The following proves the point:

We who are Jews by birth and not gentile sinners know that a man is not justified/ righteous by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:15-18

 

[Monk Brendan]

I never said or implied that. The stinky shirt is gone.

But did you take it off by yourself? Or did Jesus help you? If you believe that Jesus was/is a substitute for your death, and act upon it, then you believe that Jesus took off that smelly shirt, and helped you into a white robe.

Therefore imputed (that is, making His sin [none at all] equal to your sin), righteousness will not take that smelly shirt off. Only asking God to help you will (with His help) remove that smelly shirt.

 

[chevyontheriver]

But did you take it off by yourself? Or did Jesus help you? If you believe that Jesus was/is a substitute for your death, and act upon it, then you believe that Jesus took off that smelly shirt, and helped you into a white robe.

Therefore imputed (that is, making His sin [none at all] equal to your sin), righteousness will not take that smelly shirt off. Only asking God to help you will (with His help) remove that smelly shirt.

I couldn't do it by myself. Besides, that would be Pelagianism, thinking I could become righteous by myself.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It is natural to the human mind, you get what you earn, you get what you deserve. And people carry that over into their Christianity.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to tell anyone that you can bring your own salvation to yourself. That won't work, and I realize that. God's grace is UNmerited. If you have gotten the idea that I am trying to do away with God's unmerited grace, you've got the wrong idea.

All I am saying is that once you realize that God has done this for you, you have to cooperate with God. When He wants you to take off that hair shirt, He will ask you. If you don't realize that hair shirt is stinky, He will let you know. And if it adhered to your skin, He will help you take it off, if you ask.

But you have to work with God on this. You have to cooperate with Him. You have to be willing to take that shirt off, even if it will leave you naked in the Throne Room in heaven. You can't clamp it to your body, no matter how smelly it is.

If you hold on to that, then there is no way you are going to get into heaven.

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Mat 5:30 KJV)

Should we rephrase a bit and say if thy smelly hair shirt offend thee...

I'm not going on a WORKS can get you into heaven binge. I am just saying that cooperation IS a work, and if you cooperate with Jesus, you will get to heaven.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You don't have to first get rid of the sin before you are made righteous in Gods sight. He declares you righteous even when you are steeped in sin/ a slave of sin. Then he changes you as you trust in Christ your Saviour.

You CAN'T get rid of sin by yourself. So you cannot make yourself righteous. But you seem to say one can be a slave of sin AND a new creation at the same time, ontologically unrighteous and righteous at the same time.

But no matter how many times Paul states the believer has no righteousness/ justification of observing the law, as you say, there is a whole swathe of protestants ( and catholics) who refuse to believe it

That's NOT what I said. I said there are a whole swath of Protestants who believe righteousness is imputed but not actually received. In Monk Brendan's analogy, they have the same smelly shirt. In Luther's analogy, the dung pile is still there but covered by a bit of nice white snow.

There are others who are legalists, but that is a different swath.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You CAN'T get rid of sin by yourself. So you cannot make yourself righteous. But you seem to say one can be a slave of sin AND a new creation at the same time, ontologically unrighteous and righteous at the same time.

That's NOT what I said. I said there are a whole swath of Protestants who believe righteousness is imputed but not actually received. In Monk Brendan's analogy, they have the same smelly shirt. In Luther's analogy, the dung pile is still there but covered by a bit of nice white snow.

There are others who are legalists, but that is a different swath.

You CAN'T get rid of sin by yourself. So you cannot make yourself righteous. But you seem to say one can be a slave of sin AND a new creation at the same time, ontologically unrighteous and righteous at the same time.

That's NOT what I said. I said there are a whole swath of Protestants who believe righteousness is imputed but not actually received. In Monk Brendan's analogy, they have the same smelly shirt. In Luther's analogy, the dung pile is still there but covered by a bit of nice white snow.

There are others who are legalists, but that is a different swath.

If you have been made alive with Christ, are you a new creation?

Paul tells us we are made alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we are dead in transgression/sin Eph2:5

 

[stuart lawrence]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to tell anyone that you can bring your own salvation to yourself. That won't work, and I realize that. God's grace is UNmerited. If you have gotten the idea that I am trying to do away with God's unmerited grace, you've got the wrong idea.

All I am saying is that once you realize that God has done this for you, you have to cooperate with God. When He wants you to take off that hair shirt, He will ask you. If you don't realize that hair shirt is stinky, He will let you know. And if it adhered to your skin, He will help you take it off, if you ask.

But you have to work with God on this. You have to cooperate with Him. You have to be willing to take that shirt off, even if it will leave you naked in the Throne Room in heaven. You can't clamp it to your body, no matter how smelly it is.

If you hold on to that, then there is no way you are going to get into heaven.

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Mat 5:30 KJV)

Should we rephrase a bit and say if thy smelly hair shirt offend thee...

I'm not going on a WORKS can get you into heaven binge. I am just saying that cooperation IS a work, and if you cooperate with Jesus, you will get to heaven.

Your cooperation, is looking to Christ and trusting he is your righteousness before God, for you want to be free of the sin that binds you, for you have been born again..
The truly born again Christian wants in their heart to follow Christ, and knows all about their stinky shirt as you put it, for the law God desires them to keep has been written on their mind and placed on their heart.
And through the law placed there they become conscious of their sin ( rom3:20)

 

[stuart lawrence]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I am not trying to tell anyone that you can bring your own salvation to yourself. That won't work, and I realize that. God's grace is UNmerited. If you have gotten the idea that I am trying to do away with God's unmerited grace, you've got the wrong idea.

All I am saying is that once you realize that God has done this for you, you have to cooperate with God. When He wants you to take off that hair shirt, He will ask you. If you don't realize that hair shirt is stinky, He will let you know. And if it adhered to your skin, He will help you take it off, if you ask.

But you have to work with God on this. You have to cooperate with Him. You have to be willing to take that shirt off, even if it will leave you naked in the Throne Room in heaven. You can't clamp it to your body, no matter how smelly it is.

If you hold on to that, then there is no way you are going to get into heaven.

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Mat 5:30 KJV)

Should we rephrase a bit and say if thy smelly hair shirt offend thee...

I'm not going on a WORKS can get you into heaven binge. I am just saying that cooperation IS a work, and if you cooperate with Jesus, you will get to heaven.

I don't understand your logic regarding a new convert must cooperate with God. A true convert has asked Christ to be Lord and Saviour of their life. They have been born again. In their heart they want to live as God desires them to for the law God desires them to obey has been placed in their heart.
However:
When we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly rom5:6

The new convert is a babe in the faith, and as yet weak and without strength. They must cling to Christ and trust him to change them by the power of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies believers. That is the cooperation required. And if the believer understands that, they will automatically do it, for in their heart they want to follow after Christ

 

[Monk Brendan]

I couldn't do it by myself. Besides, that would be Pelagianism, thinking I could become righteous by myself.

No, it is recognizing the difference between the easy believism that you preach and the work that any person has to go through to be saved, here on earth, AND in heaven.

 

[chevyontheriver]

No, it is recognizing the difference between the easy believism that you preach and the work that any person has to go through to be saved, here on earth, AND in heaven.

You know we ostensibly use the same English language in trying to communicate with each other but it's not working. Cutting my losses and leaving the discussion now.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you have been made alive with Christ, are you a new creation?

Paul tells us we are made alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we are dead in transgression/sin Eph2:5

We're using English words but not communicating. Cutting my losses and moving on in search of linguistic commonality.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Righteousness of Jesus the God-Man man is imputed to His believers.They cannot earn it on their own.
Receiving SPIRITUAL POSTION IN CHRIST.

SALVATION is gained when God SPIRITUALLY calls/draws and Man spiritually accepts
the gifts of Grace / Love through spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF.(John 3 explained in Ephesians 2)
The PROCESS of SANCTIFICATION is accepted when the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit
who guides and comforts the believer into "good works" ...OBEY + FOLLOW + TRUST + SERVE + etc.(Matt. 16)

The only righteousness Man will obtain is IMPUTED Righteousness.
Spirit-led Faith in God by Abraham was "reckoned" to him....credited to his account!

"IMPUTED Righteousness": When God views saved Man, He sees the redeeming blood sacrifice by Jesus the God-Man.

The Righteousness of Jesus the God-Man is IMPUTED to ALL believers.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus,
who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God,
for if righteousness comes through the Law,
then Christ died needlessly.

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him,
not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, (works)
but that which is through FAITH in Christ,