On idols, icons, and idolatry

[zelosravioli]

Lessthanperfect said "... the prayer rope beads were knotted 7 times to prevent the demons from untying the knots, and the knots themselves were used as a physical means to pray to Christ unceasingly as instructed by St. Paul.."

Really?! ... prevent the demons from untying the knots... C'mon... and does Paul know your - implying he told us - to use a prayer rope? Really?

Lessthanperfect asked: "Do you pick and choose which Ecumenical Councils, and parts of each that you ascribe to?"
Ecumenical Councils? I study scripture, as well as all the diverse biblical disciplines that attend good biblical studies. I take it all in, and so I have my observations, freedom and faith without denominational restrictions... Lord thank you!

 

[Phronema]

Lessthanperfect said "... the prayer rope beads were knotted 7 times to prevent the demons from untying the knots, and the knots themselves were used as a physical means to pray to Christ unceasingly as instructed by St. Paul.."

Really?! ... prevent the demons from untying the knots... C'mon... and does Paul know your - implying he told us - to use a prayer rope? Really?

Lessthanperfect asked: "Do you pick and choose which Ecumenical Councils, and parts of each that you ascribe to?"
Ecumenical Councils? I study scripture, as well as all the diverse biblical disciplines that attend good biblical studies. I take it all in, and so I have my observations, freedom and faith without denominational restrictions... Lord thank you!

Okay. Well, it's been enjoyable conversing with you. Thank you for the conversation.

 

[Barney2.0]

Or admiration, or somehow elevate that thing in your heart...

Are you saying that having Idols in your heart is not important, and how objects and or images, especially involved in worship, can easily lead to that...

God Bless!

It could, but no one worships an icon.

 

[Barney2.0]

So your simply superstitious?
If the icons and ropes are getting between you and Christ - then they are mediums.
A priest was simply a medium. God could hear their prayers regardless without a temple or a priesthood, but the priesthood, like the Law and sacrifices were an image of something else - Jesus.

Orthodoxy deems these icons necessary - I suppose if they didn't they wouldn't have them. You could 'say' you don't need a hat and a coat every time you go outside, but if every time you go outside you wear a coat and hat, then you believe you need a coat and hat, and that they are necessary.

The icons are getting in the way of us reaching out to Christ, they participate in our worship to him and his own mediatorship.

 

[zelosravioli]

The icons are getting in the way of us reaching out to Christ...
(I would have to agree...) Could you clarify that?

... they participate in our worship to him and his own mediatorship.
Maybe your quoting something, but what do you mean the icons 'participate'?

 

[JM]

Icons are not treated as mediators to reach out to God.

What does all this mean? It seems the author is suggesting one can receive healing when praying in front of the icon which acts as the mediator between God and man.

What is meant by "windows into heaven?" Does that mean heaven acts through the icon?

Quote:

At this point it becomes obvious that icon gazing and sacred image viewing with the intention of receiving healing with prayer and meditation , one actually has to do it, not just read about it!

Therefore, feel free to repeat practice 1 and 2 many times – as many times as it seems fruitful and even more – even when it seems not to help.

This is what meditation is – looking at, noticing, contemplating, thinking and feeling.

For prayer, a Catholic Christian might wish to end each practice with a ‘”Hail Mary”.

Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb , Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

If you prefer, you may wish to make up a prayer of your own – questioning, praising, pleading, doubting, angry, sorrowful, or whatever. All prayer will be effective and will bring self-knowledge and healing! By revealing ourselves in prayer we reveal ourselves to ourselves too. What might be lying hidden is exposed to the light of day. From our being self-absorbed and, “boxed in”, we become more open, both to know and to receive what is for our own good. (Source)

 

[seeking.IAM]

What does all this mean?...What is meant by "windows into heaven?" Does that mean heaven acts through the icon?

Windows are for people to see out. The window is into Heaven so the faithful can see Heaven more clearly. The faithful were largely illiterate in the early days of Christianity. Icons depict the Christian story. They allowed the illiterate faithful to see that which they were unable to read. If they are a useful worship aid for someone, wherein lies the harm?

 

[Barney2.0]

What does all this mean? It seems the author is suggesting one can receive healing when praying in front of the icon which acts as the mediator between God and man.

What is meant by "windows into heaven?" Does that mean heaven acts through the icon?

Quote:

At this point it becomes obvious that icon gazing and sacred image viewing with the intention of receiving healing with prayer and meditation , one actually has to do it, not just read about it!

Therefore, feel free to repeat practice 1 and 2 many times – as many times as it seems fruitful and even more – even when it seems not to help.

This is what meditation is – looking at, noticing, contemplating, thinking and feeling.

For prayer, a Catholic Christian might wish to end each practice with a ‘”Hail Mary”.

Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb , Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

If you prefer, you may wish to make up a prayer of your own – questioning, praising, pleading, doubting, angry, sorrowful, or whatever. All prayer will be effective and will bring self-knowledge and healing! By revealing ourselves in prayer we reveal ourselves to ourselves too. What might be lying hidden is exposed to the light of day. From our being self-absorbed and, “boxed in”, we become more open, both to know and to receive what is for our own good. (Source)

We can receive healing even if we pray infront of a wall, the Icon serves to recall or remember the person depicted. By windows into heaven it means that to recall the person depicted who is in heaven. They don’t replace the job of Christ as mediator between God and man.

 

[JM]

Windows are for people to see out. The window is into Heaven so the faithful can see Heaven more clearly. The faithful were largely illiterate in the early days of Christianity. Icons depict the Christian story. They allowed the illiterate faithful to see that which they were unable to read. If they are a useful worship aid for someone, wherein lies the harm?

Any for things to go through like air, food, etc.

 

[JM]

We can receive healing even if we pray infront of a wall, the Icon serves to recall or remember the person depicted. By windows into heaven it means that to recall the person depicted who is in heaven. They don’t replace the job of Christ as mediator between God and man.

Good point! So, you are saying it's just a preference? You can have icons or not, the results will be the same?

 

[Barney2.0]

Good point! So, you are saying it's just a preference? You can have icons or not, the results will be the same?

That’s the standing of the Orthodox on it, Icons just help us remember the person depicted and liven up our worship. It doesn’t effect the outcome of prayer.

 

[Tayla]

icons to be idolatry

Idols are specifically used by pagan spirituality and are believed to encapsulate the god. None of the images or icons or statues used in the Churches you mention are idols.

 

[Chris V++]

Idols are specifically used by pagan spirituality and are believed to encapsulate the god. None of the images or icons or statues used in the Churches you mention are idols.

What about the practice of burying St. Joseph statues in yards to help sell homes. Do the statues encapsulate St. Joseph or attempt to summons the Saint? What about pilgrimages to weeping statues? Is there a better term for these practices and beliefs than idolatry?