On Hierarchies: Strong, Weak, Good, Bad, and Ugly

[Paidiske]

I'm not even going to try to pick up every strand of this thread, but just pick out a couple of things.

it is ultimately the responsibility of the pastor in every church, with or without an altar guild, to ensure that the altar area is clean, appropriately furnished, and fit for divine service, and that the Holy Table has on it that which is necessary for what the Orthodox call “the Holy oblation,” “a sacrifice of praise” and a “mercy of peace.”

For the purposes of this discussion, it may be worth noting that in Anglican custom, this is explicitly the responsibility of the parish wardens (lay leaders), and not the priest.

What I wish ACNA and some of the continuing Anglican churches would do is seek to future-proof their relationship with their parishes so that no congregation could be evicted from its parish building because it rejected any new doctrine, doctrinal definition or liturgical material, or, based on such innovation, felt compelled to seek communion with a different church

That would not reflect an Anglican ecclesiology. All ministry in Anglican churches happens only as the bishop permits. A congregation can't defy their bishop and still want to hang on to all the fabric and trappings of their Anglicanism.

What you say here might be applicable to some Protestant churches in the low church, aliturgical tradition, but when it comes to a liturgical church, if one believes as I do that the liturgy is both divine and salvific, it is imperative for the priest to take charge of the liturgy and ensure that it is done reverently, piously and in accordance with the traditions of his denomination.

There is an extent to which this is true. But a priest must also respect the established local custom of the church into which he or she walks, and work with the people rather than against their wishes. While gross abuses must be corrected, smaller matters which might be more a case of opinion or taste or allowable difference, are often situations where the priest must give way to the wishes of the people. As one liturgical scholar put it to me, once, memorably, "The liturgy is something you do with them, not to them."

I do not believe it is appropriate on CF to describe a bishop in good standing as "not fit" for the office, and would consider that egregious inflammatory comment about a public figure, which is against the rules.

 

[The Liturgist]

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[The Liturgist]

I do not believe it is appropriate on CF to describe a bishop in good standing as "not fit" for the office, and would consider that egregious inflammatory comment about a public figure,

Thank you for the heads up!

I do have specific objections to the conduct of the former Presiding Bishop, serious objections, with regards to her religious doctrine and her decisions she made in office, which are unrelated to her gender or professional qualifications, which I fear failed to make clear in my previous post. I believe she failed at her job in a serious way, based on the accelerated decline in Episcopal churches.

I very much desire to respect the rules and the friendly, congenial spirit of Traditional Theology, however, and have edited my post accordingly based on your advice, which I appreciate. I also want to apologize for the intemperate and insensitive way I wrote that post, initially.

 

[hedrick]

I myself don’t understand why that has to be a problem; episcopal churches ought to regard the Moderator as being functionally equivalent to an archbishop locum tenems, that is to say, a primus inter pares serving for a limited amount of time, the difference being the Moderator is a perpetual office; Presbyterian churches should in turn train and consecrate their Moderators to speak for the church and its presbyteries or classis in ecumenical dialogue, so as to improve the efficiency with which ecumenical dialogue can happen. I have found only one weakness in Presbyterian polity; the oversight it provides is good, but it ultimately has not been enough to prevent radical changes, for example, in the doctrine of the PCUSA or the liturgy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.

I think in the end we'll probably find a way to establish communion with the Episcopal Church. Perhaps accepting the Moderator as equivalent to a bishop, though that would require some careful formulation, because he would only be equivalent if you regard him simply as a representative of the Presbytery. (I think the actual proposal was to accept the Executive Presbyter as equivalent to a bishop. That's really problematic from our point of view, because there's a lot more danger of having the Executive Presbyter start thinking of himself as a bishop than with the Moderator.)

Polity doesn't seem to be all that closely related to maintaining theology constant. The Episcopal Church has the same theology as the PCUSA, and the conservative Presbyterian churches are still conservative. Churches like the PCA do it by using the confessions as authorities, and having the General Assembly carefully examine all new directions in theology. It's really their commitment not to change, rather than their polity, that makes the difference. No one is likely to be an adult member of the PCA without accepting that this is a church committed to Holy Tradition.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, in my OP I had meant to spend more time stressing the danger of what Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel*, called the “Moses Model” where you have independent congregations with one pastor who has no oversight in the form of Ruling Elders or a Kirk Session or denominational-level mechanisms to ensure he does his sacred duty and tends the flock entrusted to him, without engaging in abuse. The “Moses Model” is less of a problem in the specific case of the modern day Calvary Chapel, where a rogue pastor would find his parish disaffiliated from the other parishes in the denomination and presumably lose the right to Calvary Chapel branding, and more of a problem, a serious problem, in the massive number of independent non-denominational churches run by one pastor with absolute authority.

*The late Rev. Smith wrote a very good book on the history, theology and praxis of the Calvary Chapel denomination, entitled Calvary Chapel Distinctives. He came from a church with a congregational polity but developed an opposition to being a “hireling” minister, which led him to form his own church where he was in complete control. Fortunately, he was a good guy, and his denomination is a trustworthy one with competent and well trained clergy, although their aliturgical worship is not my style.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm sure you were appreciated by your parishioners, if for no other reason to beat the Baptists to the restaurant.

They usually get there first, as well. This makes one admire Orthodox asceticism that much more (although many Orthodox parishes have a meal after the services, or did pre-Covid).

 

[seeking.IAM]

They usually get there first, as well. This makes one admire Orthodox asceticism that much more (although many Orthodox parishes have a meal after the services, or did pre-Covid).

When I left home to attend a worldly state university I promised mom I would still go to church but I was never going to a church dinner again. 'Tis a side effect of being a PK dragged to every Methodist pot luck for 18 years. You have posted the best reason I can think of not to be Orthodox (with apologies to my Orthodox friends.)

I have concluded there is no correlation between Christian saintliness and the ability to cook. Forgive me.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

I seriously ROFLd. I had of course intended to type “a lack of incense” but iPad Autocomplete bit me hard in the rear. And how dare it! What’s it trying to do, make me look like Muhammed?

In college for a business study, we had a guy working on warehouse requirements. Imagine our surprise when we ended up with a 20,000SF whorehouse with so much loading and stacking capacity. "Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a NEW business plan..."