On Getting Into Heaven: A Friend's Thoughts

[leecappella]

1) You can't find the answer to your question by analyzing scripture -- if the Bible was clear on this issue (or ANY issue) there wouldn't be so many different views amongst the various denominations.

2) You need to look at this from the perspective of Zen:

Zen can't be taught, it can only be learned. Like Zen, the principles of Christ can't be taught -- they can only be learned. Zen is learned by applying Zen in your daily life. Like Zen, the principles of Christ can only be learned by applying then in your daily life. And I think the principles of Christ are clear from the gospels -- love your neighbor as you love yourself.

3) What is the purpose of your question -- you sound like you think the answer actually has some importance -- but it doesn't:

If the way to heaven is through belief -- then your sincere belief that Jesus is God will lead you to love and worship him which will lead you to want to emulate him which leads you to follow his example of loving your neighbor. If the way to heaven is through works, then you will follow his example of loving your neighbor, and come to love and worship Jesus as the example for your life. Either way, the result will be the same. The Bible and the Gospels are not about what's going to happen to you when you die (how do I make sure I'm going to heaven) -- they are about what you should be doing when you're alive (how do I make sure I'm showing love to my fellow man). Concerning yourself with YOUR afterlife is selfishness, a sin, and you can't sin your way to heaven -- it's the unselfish concern for your fellow man that saves you. It's the doing that counts, not the "being right" about it.

4) You shouldn't concern yourself with doctrine -- that's the problem with ALL religions -- they are concerned with doctrine -- especially the RIGHT doctrine (which separates them from the religions that have the WRONG doctrine) instead of being concerned PRIMARILY with how they treat the rest of humanity.

 

[Theresa]

1) You can't find the answer to your question by analyzing scripture -- if the Bible was clear on this issue (or ANY issue) there wouldn't be so many different views amongst the various denominations.

-the Bible isn't the problem, fallible man is.

2) You need to look at this from the perspective of Zen:

Zen can't be taught, it can only be learned. Like Zen, the principles of Christ can't be taught -- they can only be learned. Zen is learned by applying Zen in your daily life. Like Zen, the principles of Christ can only be learned by applying then in your daily life. And I think the principles of Christ are clear from the gospels -- love your neighbor as you love yourself.

-I think that the Bible's most prominent teaching is it's principles.

3) What is the purpose of your question -- you sound like you think the answer actually has some importance -- but it doesn't:

If the way to heaven is through belief -- then your sincere belief that Jesus is God will lead you to love and worship him which will lead you to want to emulate him which leads you to follow his example of loving your neighbor. If the way to heaven is through works, then you will follow his example of loving your neighbor, and come to love and worship Jesus as the example for your life. Either way, the result will be the same.

-his following sentence does not flow well, therefore should relate to the above sentence. He did not prove the above thoughts so he cannot therefore say that the Bible is not about your eternal destiny. Maybe that's not a perfect explanation. This is better. One doesn't equal the other. If salvation is by faith you should do this, if salvation is by works you should do that so therefore the Bible isn't concerned with your eternal destiny. It doesn't make sense.

The Bible and the Gospels are not about what's going to happen to you when you die (how do I make sure I'm going to heaven) -- they are about what you should be doing when you're alive (how do I make sure I'm showing love to my fellow man).

-what you do directly affects your eternal destiny.

Concerning yourself with YOUR afterlife is selfishness, a sin, and you can't sin your way to heaven -- it's the unselfish concern for your fellow man that saves you. It's the doing that counts, not the "being right" about it.

-the heart is most important. The heart that loves is key. However the heart that loves should seek truth and love truth. Concerning yourself with your afterlife is not selfishness and there is nothing to say that you can't strive for heaven and concern yourself with others. Or maybe you could say this: we aim at heaven by concerning ourselves with others.

4) You shouldn't concern yourself with doctrine -- that's the problem with ALL religions -- they are concerned with doctrine -- especially the RIGHT doctrine (which separates them from the religions that have the WRONG doctrine) instead of being concerned PRIMARILY with how they treat the rest of humanity.

-that's rather fatalistic in the same way that Marxism or whatnot it. Some say religion causes strife and prejudice therefore we should reject religion.

Religion doesn't cause division and prejudice, sinful man in it's fallibility causes division and prejudice.

You can't blame the divisions among Christians on religion. You can blame it on sin.

Everybody should be concerned with seeking a full truth by doctrine in order to understand what truth is and to know God and his ways better. However, you should not do this with the intention of being prejudiced and judgemental to those who you feel have not the "right" doctrine.

In others words, instead of saying this is right and that is wrong, he is saying neither is at the same time of saying that he is right in this thought: "being concerned PRIMARILY with how they treat the rest of humanity"

-He says that there is no right doctrine or wrong doctrine but he is right in believing that our primary concern is how we treat the rest of humanity. It's a faulty logic/arguement.

Now, he is right, we should treat humanity well, but our primary concern is loving God with all our heart, soul and mind. Our secondary concern is linked to the first, love thy neighbor as thyself. But the search for truth is primary so that we know how to love God with all our heart, soul and mind but to do this while judging others is faulty, too.


"Another example of this error is the relativist hedonist who says, "There are no moral absolutes." The hedonist is in logical trouble because that very statement is a moral absolute. He is saying it is a moral absolute that there are no moral absolutes. His system self-destructs. it cannot be true regardless of how popular it is in America today. What he is really saying is "There are no moral absolutes....except for this one."

Born Fundamentalist, Born-again Catholic -David B. Currie