On Fear of Prelest

[grov]

Hoping only to provoke some thought, and no flames... I've noticed of late a lot of concern (if not fear) of prelest resulting from too much interaction with folks from certain backgrounds. I got to thinking about Bishop Veniaminov (St. Innocent). One of the factors contributing to the tremendous success he and a few Priests had in Alaska was his relentless and persistent interest in the people, their background, their culture, their language... and his empathy for their state. His works remain to this day the most exhaustive and respected set of studies of the various tribes there. I'm sure you've heard how the conversion to Orthodoxy, after St. Innocent's work there, was rapid and massive. This in spite of the tribal religious leaders with their cultic practices and initial oppositions. St. Innocent was able to find similarities between their beliefs and the truth, was able to demonstrate his care for them by his commitment, showed them what was appropriate to keep and what wasn't, which they were able to accept because he loved them. Same with St. Herman and others. What would have happened if he was too concerned about prelest to get into their culture, work with their shammans, understand why they believed the way they did, and even bless much of it? How many demons do you suppose were mobilized to destroy the early work in Alaska - I think they haplessly bounced off of St. Innocent's love. I'm not aware of any Priests there falling into prelest, though a number of them failed because they had disdain for the natives. We are blessed to be part of the Holy Orthodox Church - who will lead us into prelest against our will? The Church is our Mother, God is our Father. We have nothing to fear. The Arena opens with a case study of prelest... if I remember right, each one fell through pride, none by showing love to someone of strange beliefs. The Church remains strong, and Sts. Innocent and Herman are with us. I'm proud of those who risk reputation because of association, in order to extend love. Please forgive any offense. George

 

[Akathist]

I am a bit confused.

I guess my understanding of what "prelest" is and yours is different.

My understanding (which I am willing to say is wrong) is that prelest is when you get it into your head that you have achieved some kind of spiritual advancement often related to comparing yourself to others.

For example, a new to Orthodoxy individual who is able to follow the full fast rigorously might begin to think they are more spiritually advanced because of it, especially when they find out others struggle with this.

Or, someone has the opinion that there jurisidiction, or if splintered, their group, is superior on a spiritual level to another group based on things like which calender is followed or some such thing.

The fact is, that it is very dangerous for us to compare ourselves with other people and try to match others levels of spirituality like it was a competition. The danger is that we put on a level of spirituality that we have not really reached and then convince ourselves it is real so that this could in fact lead us to not work toward real spiritual growth or can lead us to a feeling of "pride" that is most unhealthy for our souls.

What I see you commenting on, is about the fact that the Orthdox Church has routinely been sensitive to the culture and especially the language of the people that missions have been sent to reach. Take the development of the "Slavonic" language for example. That was an effort to have a liturgical language that was easier for people in a certain region to use and it helped them as at that time no written language had been developed in those cultures. This made it easier to spread the growth of churches much easier as copies of liturgical services could be made and sent with missionaries who could teach the written language to new Priests and so forth.

One of the reaons why many many churches in the U.S. use English in services here is because it is the most common language. I have not researched it, but it would not surprise to to hear that there are congregations who use the Spanish language in some American Churches as well as churches in Mexico, etc.

I don't see that as the same as "prelest" at all, unless of course, I have a misunderstanding of that term. I welcome more input on this subject.

 

[Mark Downham]

2 Corinthians 10:7-12 (NASB)

7You are looking only on the surface of things. If anyone is confident that he belongs to Christ, he should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as he. 8 For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. 10For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing." 11Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

12We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.

 

[Akathist]

Ok, I googled "prelest" and did some reading and while my understanding of "prelest" is one of the ways that word is used, it might more commonly be in reference to someone who believes they have reached a level of spiritual advancement so that they are receiving visions and fall under spiritual "delusions".

An example was given of a monk who was told by a vision to only read the "Old Testiment" and nothing else. He became deluded in the process so that he was teaching against the "New Testiment". It was a spiritual battle and an evil spirit was involved.

I guess I still can't see how "prelest" even in that sense applies to cultural sensitivities, unless there is a false assumption that these cultural sensitivities included encouraging the use of nonOrthodox practices such as consultation with the ancient ancestors by shamons, etc.

 

[eoe]

I'm not aware of any Priests there falling into prelest, though a number of them failed because they had disdain for the natives.

I wonder what it was that caused them to have disdain? Do you suppose it was that they were prideful? How can you look down on someone else if you are not being prideful? If they were indeed being prideful, where did this pride stem from? If the disdain, and hence the pride, stemmed from the difference in spirituality between the natives and the priests then it was indeed spiritual pride - prelest.

We are blessed to be part of the Holy Orthodox Church - who will lead us into prelest against our will?

It is not a matter of being led against our will. It is a matter of marching headlong into it with banners waving and trumpets blaring and hands clapping.

 

[Orthocat]

My understanding would be that of the gnostics, who believed they had received special revelations from God, and were exalted above the ordinary folk. Special "visions" and the like...
I am not aware of any today being accused of this. At least not in the EO...

 

[Akathist]

My understanding would be that of the gnostics, who believed they had received special revelations from God, and were exalted above the ordinary folk. Special "visions" and the like...
I am not aware of any today being accused of this. At least not in the EO...

When I was in highschool, one of my friends mother said she was the "Angel of Philadelphia" and was a Prophet. I believe she was suffering from a mental health problem but she did not believe this. She really believed that she was a Prophet.

Her "fruit of the spirit" did not indicate that she was a "Prophet" as my protestant minister advised me. I understand that over the course of time she developed quite a following of believers and has written a book.

Of course she was not or is not EO.

Would we use the term "prelest" in that kind of a situation?

 

[Orthocat]

When I was in highschool, one of my friends mother said she was the "Angel of Philadelphia" and was a Prophet. I believe she was suffering from a mental health problem but she did not believe this. She really believed that she was a Prophet.

Her "fruit of the spirit" did not indicate that she was a "Prophet" as my protestant minister advised me. I understand that over the course of time she developed quite a following of believers and has written a book.

Of course she was not or is not EO.

Would we use the term "prelest" in that kind of a situation?

Even Manson had his followers...a lot of people are just looking for someone to "lead" them. We really are sheep.

I'm not sure if it applies only to EO or not. I know there are currently some "Christian" leaders that have decided tradition and scripture is no longer valid and their "revelations" from God will now lead the church. Not EO of course...

Fortunately I guess, my stupidity will not allow me to feel I have any special knowledge. Everyday I realize how much I don't know...

 

[eoe]

Would we use the term "prelest" in that kind of a situation?

That appears to be an extreme case but I am not one to say. You gotta be careful saying "This person is this" or "that person is that".

The "calling card" of prelest is a lack of humility.

How to identify prelest in 2 easy steps...
Ask these 2 questions.

1. Does the peson claim to have spiritual gifts or are they actively persuing the gifts?
2. Is the person truely humble?

People that really do have spiritual gifts will likely never admit that they have them. They treat them as if they are nothing special and they do not chase after them.

And of course there is the spiritual law - there is no true spirituality without true humility.

When Elder Porphyrios discovered his gifts and told his elders about them he was chastised and told not to give any importance to them and not to speak of them to anyone.

Christ said that you would know them by their fruit - one of the fruits is humility and it is the one that can not exist together with pride. If there is a lack of humility there is no spirituality. Period. The End. Game over. Have a nice day.

The fact is that all of us here are probably in prelest to some degree or another. The trick is to realize that and use that realization to temper ourselves. One could debate quite well that anyone that is actively seeking out the gifts is automatically in prelest - why? Well they are prideful enough to think that they are worthy of the gift and are doing things to attempt to aquire them. Is that not the definition of prelest? Spiritual delusion/pride? If you are deluded and prideful and chase after the gifts is that not the most perfect method possible for falling into deep prelest?

If we imagine that we want to write a prescription for prelest - we want to find the most efficient method possible for falling into prelest what would it be?
In my opinion it would be quite easy:

How to fall into prelest:

1. Think yourself something special - somehow worthy of the gifts or spiritual advancement.
2. Consider that the gifts are something important.
3. Actively persue the aquisition of the gifts.

We are to seek first the kingdom of God and these things will be added to us. Christ is not a liar. If these things have not been added it is not because we have not asked or wanted them - it is because we have not been obedient to him. A slave does not demand special attention - if he does he is more likely to get a whipping than a gift. It is the obedient servant that is rewarded. We are to seek the kingdom - not the rewards.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

People that really do have spiritual gifts will likely never admit that they have them. They treat them as if they are nothing special and they do not chase after them.

How to fall into prelest:

1. Think yourself something special - somehow worthy of the gifts or spiritual advancement.
2. Consider that the gifts are something important.
3. Actively persue the aquisition of the gifts.

THANK YOU!!!


LK

 

[rusmeister]

I agree with Xenia and eoe on their various points. The important things in the issues around prelest that I have seen lately are to not think or talk about gifts (as eoe said) and to not let non-Orthodox teaching creep into Orthodoxy as teaching. We should seek the guidance of our Orthodox spiritual father or priest in all matters of faith, and not try to figure them out on our own or with non-Orthodox guidance. That is quite different from interest and empathy in the lives of the people we are dealing with.

 

[Akathist]

When I was a Pentecostal there was a big push to "speak in tongues". I was in that. But I find it very interesting that I no longer have this desire at all, nor I don't believe, the ability. I think that the Holy Spirit has shown this gift in others. But those others were far more advanced spiritually than I am. (And likely more than I ever will be unfortunatly.)

I remember the time when a women needed to confess but did not speak English as she was an immigrant. Unfortunately, the elder of the Monestary in she went to did not speak her native tongue and did not in fact speak English either that well.

They could not use an interpretor because of the privacy of confession.

The information about this came to me from my Priest so I don't have the details, but he told me about how when the woman came out of the confessional her face was light up and face covered in tears. It seems that she confessed in her native language and the Elder (Priest) at the Monestary (Priest Monk?) (Hierarcical Monk? ) counseled her and she understood every word he said.

When someone asked the Priest Elder about this, he just put his finger over his mouth and said "shhh".

Now that is fruit that I believe!

 

[grov]

Xenia Rose said:

My understanding (which I am willing to say is wrong) is that prelest is when you get it into your head that you have achieved some kind of spiritual advancement often related to comparing yourself to others.

OK, now I get it, sort of.
I was laboring under a different understanding of the term. I had seen it defined as "spiritual delusion", and as such thought it encompassed much more than a pride of achievement or position.

In the context of what I thought prelest meant, I was trying to suggest that we can engage persons of other faiths without fear of being pulled into their deception - and if that's not the case, then how do we hope to have another breakthrough as happened in Alaska, apparently in part because St. Innocent had more love for the people than he had fear of falling into deception, even though he had tremendous curiousity about their beliefs. Maybe what intrigued him was what truth he could find in what they believed, as a point of connection and then a point of departure to teach them an Orthodox faith, when once they were convinced of his love for them.

I figured that if we won't dain to venture into the hearts of those around us, for fear of ourselves falling into some delusion, then they are all lost indeed, except for the Grace of God.

But... the definition Xenia put forth causes me to rethink the warnings I've seen posted - I'd have to re-read them in that light, and maybe I misunderstood what people's concern has been.

Thank you Xenia Rose and the other's who've cleared things up a bit.

George

 

[Akathist]

Xenia Rose said:


OK, now I get it, sort of.
I was laboring under a different understanding of the term. I had seen it defined as "spiritual delusion", and as such thought it encompassed much more than a pride of achievement or position.

In the context of what I thought prelest meant, I was trying to suggest that we can engage persons of other faiths without fear of being pulled into their deception - and if that's not the case, then how do we hope to have another breakthrough as happened in Alaska, apparently in part because St. Innocent had more love for the people than he had fear of falling into deception, even though he had tremendous curiousity about their beliefs. Maybe what intrigued him was what truth he could find in what they believed, as a point of connection and then a point of departure to teach them an Orthodox faith, when once they were convinced of his love for them.

I figured that if we won't dain to venture into the hearts of those around us, for fear of ourselves falling into some delusion, then they are all lost indeed, except for the Grace of God.

But... the definition Xenia put forth causes me to rethink the warnings I've seen posted - I'd have to re-read them in that light, and maybe I misunderstood what people's concern has been.

Thank you Xenia Rose and the other's who've cleared things up a bit.

George

Ecumenicalism has a danger of creating a culture which is like a "melting pot" in which everyone compromises their beliefs so to achieve a "harmonious peace and unity" where without the compromises the discrepancies would create something like... Welll.... General Theology for example!

There are times when we have to stand out as different but at the same time show respect for others. However there is the danger when quietly ignoring differing beliefs that the impression will be made that one agrees with those beliefs.

I had an IM chat with someone two nights ago. We were playing Gin Rummy my screen name there is orthodoxchristian. I started using that screen name because it stops the creeps from asking me what I am wearing and if I want to do something inappropriate with them.. (ick ick). Since using that name this has not happened once.

The other night the person asked me about my faith as they knew very little about it. It was a brief conversation and I made it a point to stress how there are many things that I believe that is like her evangelical belief and not to force her to listen to how our beliefs differ nor for me to make a point to say her belief is wrong. Instead I defended my own a little. Regarding prayer for the dead she started to try to tell me this was wrong, and I just said:"Well, surely prayer does no harm." This she could agree with. I did this to encourage her to want to know more about EO's and to encourage her to see that we are loving and respectful other others. It was a great conversation. However, she was especially easy to talk to because she was not trying to prove I was wrong for 98% of the time and I guess since I was not trying to prove she was wrong, I was easier for her to talk to.

That said, this was just a brief conversation. At some point the very real differences would become more obvious. OR I would have had to start to compromise my beliefs or she would have had to compromise her beliefs.

I don't know if I am making any sense. But I can give another really good example. A friend of mine is into Wicca and shamonism. She invites me to her "rituals" all the time. I always am honest with her and say I can't attend as it is forbidden for me to attend and that we just don't have the same beliefs. I stay her friend, but I have to draw the line. What I do not do is leave my friendship. It is possible that over time she will return again to a more traditional Christian belief system as she and I used to go to the Lutheran Chruch together when we were in college.

My Priest however has made it perfectly clear that I am not in any way to allow her beliefs to start to effect my own beliefs. For the most part she and I do not talk about such matters. She has some different moral standards on some issues than I do and we do discuss that but she and I respect each other while maintaining our differences.

 

[rusmeister]

Hi George!
The one little thing I would add is that if the people we're dealing with are not open to conversion, or moreover seek actively to draw us into their heterodox, schismatic or heretical beliefs, then we can hardly hope for a breakthrough and are subjecting ourselves to those beliefs in vain.
(That includes debates on GT or other forums, as well as real life)

One big difference with Protestant evangelicalism, in my experience, is that while we don't do door-to-door talking about the faith, we are expected to witness the faith by our lives, how we live.

One thing C.S. Lewis said that I really like is that a variety of experience (1 good book, 1 old friend, 1 spectacular sunset and something else along those lines) is far more likely to convince a person of truth than 4 good books.

Oh, and great post, Xenia! (just came up on m'screen)

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Ecumenicalism has a danger of creating a culture which is like a "melting pot" in which everyone compromises their beliefs so to achieve a "harmonious peace and unity" where without the compromises the discrepancies would create something like... Welll.... General Theology for example!

There are times when we have to stand out as different but at the same time show respect for others. However there is the danger when quietly ignoring differing beliefs that the impression will be made that one agrees with those beliefs.

I had an IM chat with someone two nights ago. We were playing Gin Rummy my screen name there is orthodoxchristian. I started using that screen name because it stops the creeps from asking me what I am wearing and if I want to do something inappropriate with them.. (ick ick). Since using that name this has not happened once.

The other night the person asked me about my faith as they knew very little about it. It was a brief conversation and I made it a point to stress how there are many things that I believe that is like her evangelical belief and not to force her to listen to how our beliefs differ nor for me to make a point to say her belief is wrong. Instead I defended my own a little. Regarding prayer for the dead she started to try to tell me this was wrong, and I just said:"Well, surely prayer does no harm." This she could agree with. I did this to encourage her to want to know more about EO's and to encourage her to see that we are loving and respectful other others. It was a great conversation. However, she was especially easy to talk to because she was not trying to prove I was wrong for 98% of the time and I guess since I was not trying to prove she was wrong, I was easier for her to talk to.

That said, this was just a brief conversation. At some point the very real differences would become more obvious. OR I would have had to start to compromise my beliefs or she would have had to compromise her beliefs.

I don't know if I am making any sense. But I can give another really good example. A friend of mine is into Wicca and shamonism. She invites me to her "rituals" all the time. I always am honest with her and say I can't attend as it is forbidden for me to attend and that we just don't have the same beliefs. I stay her friend, but I have to draw the line. What I do not do is leave my friendship. It is possible that over time she will return again to a more traditional Christian belief system as she and I used to go to the Lutheran Chruch together when we were in college.

My Priest however has made it perfectly clear that I am not in any way to allow her beliefs to start to effect my own beliefs. For the most part she and I do not talk about such matters. She has some different moral standards on some issues than I do and we do discuss that but she and I respect each other while maintaining our differences.

Same here, i also, have a good friend who's Wiccan, but I don't allow her beliefs to influence me. The same thing with her moral standards too. The best way to put is, she's more liberal on her moral standards, and the older I get, (i'm young, only 19) it seems the more conservative my moral standards get. I don't try to force them on anyone, it just seems, the more I learn about Christ's Church, the more, I realize I've got it wrong, and that I need to conform to Christ, and not find a church that conforms to me. When I first began looking up Orthodoxy, I'm still an inquirer as I've yet to go to A Divine Liturgy , yeah i know, I make excuses. Anyway, I've realized alot of what I have been doing, is trying to find a church that conforms to me. I have researched a lit bit more, i'm still highly uninformed still, I now, know I was wrong to do this, but still, gradually the more I learn about Orthodoxy, the more it seems, to be Christ's true Church, the narrow path by which the few walk upon towards God's Heavenly Kingdom. So, I am left with no alternative, but to go.

 

[Akathist]

Same here, i also, have a good friend who's Wiccan, but I don't allow her beliefs to influence me. The same thing with her moral standards too. The best way to put is, she's more liberal on her moral standards, and the older I get, (i'm young, only 19) it seems the more conservative my moral standards get. I don't try to force them on anyone, it just seems, the more I learn about Christ's Church, the more, I realize I've got it wrong, and that I need to conform to Christ, and not find a church that conforms to me. When I first began looking up Orthodoxy, I'm still an inquirer as I've yet to go to A Divine Liturgy , yeah i know, I make excuses. Anyway, I've realized alot of what I have been doing, is trying to find a church that conforms to me. I have researched a lit bit more, i'm still highly uninformed still, I now, know I was wrong to do this, but still, gradually the more I learn about Orthodoxy, the more it seems, to be Christ's true Church, the narrow path by which the few walk upon towards God's Heavenly Kingdom. So, I am left with no alternative, but to go.

It has been a very bad day for me with lots of dissapointments. Your posts are such an encouragement to me. They are like a balm on my soreness! Thanks for being you!

Keep in mind that Orthodoxy is not ever going to be known by reading about it. This is a living faith and it can only be experienced in our services, practices (praxis) and that includes prayers, fasting (to the level your Spiritual Father directs you to), setting ourselves aside, and adopting an Orthodox mindset. I think that attending services is one of the most important things to do when looking at the faith, when converting and when living it out.

 

[grov]

RavenontheCross,
I wish I'd understood by your age the woo'ing of the Church, the protection she offers, that you recognize. I wish I'd known then what you already understand.

Sometime, I'd be interested in hearing why you chose the online name that you did (Raven on the Cross).

Xenia Rose - I'm sorry you had a difficult day today - at least you can lay claim to having helped one sinner (me) understand one thing a little better. Thank you.

George

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Thank you, I know that I have been making excuses not to go, and that I probaly should, it's just that I'm alittle afraid of doing something embarrassing or not being able to follow along with the liturgy, I know, how would I know if I've never done it?, so I guess I'll just have to garner up my guts, and take it from there and go on Sunday. Right now it just seems so far away. I also, wanted to talk with the priest, being as even if I go to DL, and get involved in EOC, I'm going away for college, and haven't a clue as to if there's any Orthodox Churches by my college.(this part worries me too.) The reason why I'm also worried is that, if I get involved in EO, if there's none by my college, I don't want to be seen as dabbler, and then not be taken seriously, when the time comes for me to move foward in my spiritual life with God and his church.

 

[Akathist]

RavenontheCross,
I wish I'd understood by your age the woo'ing of the Church, the protection she offers, that you recognize. I wish I'd known then what you already understand.

Sometime, I'd be interested in hearing why you chose the online name that you did (Raven on the Cross).

Xenia Rose - I'm sorry you had a difficult day today - at least you can lay claim to having helped one sinner (me) understand one thing a little better. Thank you.

George

oh gee golly.. thanks!