On atheists and Hell...

[PastorJim]

Sorry, but I saw nothing that even suggested that those "who have never heard of Him [have] an opportunity to be saved." Perhaps you might post the specific scripture you have in mind. Thank you.

That's funny, everybody else seems to see it just fine.

 

[morningstar2651]

That's funny, everybody else seems to see it just fine.

Could you explain it to me? I'm not seeing it either.

 

[Washington]

That's funny, everybody else seems to see it just fine.

Who, "Everyone else"? Me thinks there isn't a thing there that substantiates your claim---I sure couldn't find it---and that you've been reduced to blowing smoke in order to cover up your baseless assertion. Nothing new in this of course. I've seen the tactic frequently used by defenders of the faith when backed into a corner. Of course, if I'm wrong here all you have to do is reveal the sacred text you refer to. OR, you can continue stonewalling. Choice is yours, PJ.

 

[PastorJim]

Who, "Everyone else"?

Everyone I show it to.

Me thinks there isn't a thing there that substantiates your claim---I sure couldn't find it---and that you've been reduced to blowing smoke in order to cover up your baseless assertion.

Whatever.

Of course, if I'm wrong here all you have to do is reveal the sacred text you refer to. OR, you can continue stonewalling. Choice is yours, PJ.

I told you exactly where it's found.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Remember this?

This is why a "Christian" message board needs to have Christian moderators.

But please, let us dispense this and I'd love to hear the explanation you give. I'm a Christian so you really have no excuse not to give it to me.

 

[PastorJim]

Remember this?

Yes, but that isn't what I asked you. I asked you where I put her down.

 

[Washington]

I told you exactly where it's found.

Thanks for confirming our suspicions. Your god must be very proud of you.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh brother.

Jim, just explain what you see when you read those passages. Please.

 

[PastorJim]

Oh brother.

OK. I understand.

Jim, just explain what you see when you read those passages. Please.

I see what Christians have seen that it says for 2,000 years: that God has given every man two witnesses: the internal witness of the conscience and the external witness of creation and that God has made these things so clear that no man has an excuse to say that he does not believe there is a God.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

OK. I understand.



I see what Christians have seen that it says for 2,000 years: that God has given every man two witnesses: the internal witness of the conscience and the external witness of creation and that God has made these things so clear that no man has an excuse to say that he does not believe there is a God.

And how do you see this?

(Please note that I am in agreement with this statement)

 

[PastorJim]

And how do you see this?

I read it in the Bible.

 

[jcook922]

So... if those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior go to Hell, then why doesn't God just kill off the atheists? Why does he let them live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?

E.g. surely God always knew that I would become an atheist, he always knew I wouldn't accept the teachings of Jesus Christ nor the Scripture, so why allow me to live only to cast me into the fiery pits of Hell? Doesn't sound awfully benevolent to me.

And what about the arbitrary tribe in sub-saharan Africa, the Mwujambu. They give birth to a baby boy, but this boy nor his family have never heard of Christianity or the Trinity and all that. So then the baby boy dies of malaria/whatever and then finds himself at the gates of Hell.

"Oh, sorry little boy, the missionaries weren't due to visit your tribe in another 4 months. Sorry, but in you go!"

I think it's because God is more compassionate than that. He wouldn't create us with the ability to choose our beliefs just so he could force Christianity on our race. Seems selfish and unfair, and I don't believe our god to be either.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I read it in the Bible.

I wonder how you handle these types of questions from your own congregation. I surely hope you give them better answers.

 

[PastorJim]

I wonder how you handle these types of questions from your own congregation. I surely hope you give them better answers.

I sure do. The people in my congregation are sincere when they ask questions and are not just looking to argue and contradict anything they don't agree with.

 

[Washington]

I see what Christians have seen that it says for 2,000 years: that God has given every man two witnesses: the internal witness of the conscience and the external witness of creation and that God has made these things so clear that no man has an excuse to say that he does not believe there is a God.

Notice how he has conveniently ignored the crux of the question, which evolved from the following.

In answer to paug's:

"What does the Bible say concerning people who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior?"
​

PJ replied:

"I think what you mean is, 'what does the Bible say about people who are not born again, who have not repented of their sins and put their faith in Christ's atonement on their behalf.'.

It says they face God's wrath on Judgement Day and go to Hell."

​

In other words, unless one is

1." born again,"

2. "repented of their sins"

3. "put their faith in Christ's atonement on their behalf"

you're headed for to Hell. Simple as that. In order to avoid Hell all one has to do is do these three things. Otherwise . . . . well bring your shorts and tanning lotion.

Ya gotta be born again, repentant of your sins, and put your faith in Christ's atonement on their behalf". PERIOD!

But hold on!!!!!!!!!!!!

PJ also says "God is good. Who but a good God would provide even those who have never heard of Him with an opportunity to be saved?"

SO, one doesn't have to be "born again, repentant of their sins, and put their faith in Christ's atonement" after all. Evidently PJ simply got the first part about the born again stuff , repenting, and putting their faith in Christ, wrong.
All one has to do is listen, I guess, to the two witnesses everyone has in them: the internal witness of the conscience and the external witness of creation. And how does he know about this requirement? Because evidently "Romans 1-2, among other places" tells him so. It also tells him that his god has made this very clear to everyone on earth. However, PJ here refuses to point out the particular text he derives this rather esoteric, almost mystical, notion from. Is it Romans 1:18-23? How about Romans 1: 28-32? Or maybe it's Romans 2:17-24. Whatever it is, I guess it's just going to be PJs little secret.







But then we all know why he's keeping it a secret, don't we.

 

[KCKID]

I haven't read every post ...just most of them. Has anyone yet disclosed the Bible FACT that 'hell' is merely 'the grave'? Yep, it's simply another word for 'the grave'. Nothing more. Whatever else is being made of 'hell' is pure fiction. It amazes me how many 'devout' Christians are unaware of this. This is why I have little faith in Christians and their beliefs.

 

[PastorJim]

I haven't read every post ...just most of them. Has anyone yet disclosed the Bible FACT that 'hell' is merely 'the grave'? Yep, it's simply another word for 'the grave'. Nothing more. Whatever else is being made of 'hell' is pure fiction. It amazes me how many 'devout' Christians are unaware of this. This is why I have little faith in Christians and their beliefs.

And then there's what the Bible teaches, which is that Hell is a literal place of literal fire, where sinners are sentenced to suffer in conscious torment for eternity.

If it were just the grave, we wouldn't be told that people in Hell would be conscious.

If it were just the grave, then we wouldn't be told that people in Hell would be tormented.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I haven't read every post ...just most of them. Has anyone yet disclosed the Bible FACT that 'hell' is merely 'the grave'? Yep, it's simply another word for 'the grave'. Nothing more. Whatever else is being made of 'hell' is pure fiction. It amazes me how many 'devout' Christians are unaware of this. This is why I have little faith in Christians and their beliefs.

The word grave is but one translation of the word. There are a few different translations and versions that do talk about a fiery lake and gnashing of teeth.

I'm a devout Christian and I am aware that there are people out there who want to chalk up hell to being some dastardly end in a fairy tale. It amazes and scares me that people would take such a casual view of eternal punishment.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I sure do. The people in my congregation are sincere when they ask questions and are not just looking to argue and contradict anything they don't agree with.

ahh...so you know people's intent, do you...a mindreader!

Are you saying that *I* am not sincere in my questions? Are you really prepared to sit there in judgment on why I ask these questions?

At any rate, since you don't really want to play fair, I won't bother trying to engage you again. I prefer my theological discussions to be with people who actually are interested in answering questions.

have a great day.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I sure do. The people in my congregation are sincere when they ask questions and are not just looking to argue and contradict anything they don't agree with.

That's a pretty sweeping judgment to make about everyone outside your congregation. Do you always disobey Christ or only when He says not to pass judgments on others and not to bear false witness against them? How do you reconcile this selective and deliberate disobedience of your Master with your supposed vocation in life?

Just wondering ...