Omnipotence (my first post!)

[BJQ87]

Can God create an object to heavy for him to lift? Yes. Then can God lift it? Yes. But God does not do such a thing, he has the ability to do it, but he does not.

So then you ask how I could know God won't change the laws of logic? How could I know that God won't break promises, sin, cause himself not to exist?

Is not breaking his promises a limitation to power? no. Is not being able to sin a limitation to power? no. Is not being able to not exist a limitation to power? no.

On the other hand, it is my limitation of power to have the ability to break promises, sin, and not exist.

PERHAPS there are instances when God might change the laws of logic, but if it is a limitation of power such as these then it is impossible.

 

[TeddyKGB]

I think "change the laws of logic" is a content-free phrase until such time as someone describes to me a world without a law of non contradiction, or explains how I might conceive of one.

 

[BJQ87]

I think "change the laws of logic" is a content-free phrase until such time as someone describes to me a world without a law of non contradiction, or explains how I might conceive of one.

That is why I say God does not create the object in the first place. Though he could, theoretically.

 

[FSTDT]

Can God create an object to heavy for him to lift? Yes. Then can God lift it? Yes. But God does not do such a thing, he has the ability to do it, but he does not.

If the question was "does God create rocks so big that he couldnt lift", then it would be perfectly fine to say "no, he does not". But the question is "can god make a rock so big that he couldnt lift it" is the actual question, so your reply "no, he does not" is a nonanswer

However, if you believe God can create an object too big for him to lift, then he lifts it, then your god exists just as much as shapeless cubes and square circles.

So then you ask how I could know God won't change the laws of logic?

This is one of those kinds of ideas that exists purely in a string of words, and is purely empty in any other context. For example, the idea that God can make the statement "A = not A" noncontradictory and consistent, or that God can compell me against my will to post on this site by my own freewill are also ideas that exist in words, but they are otherwise incoherent.

Is not breaking his promises a limitation to power? no. Is not being able to sin a limitation to power? no. Is not being able to not exist a limitation to power? no.

If we understand power is the capacity to do something, and God lacks a capacity to do certain things, then how is it not a limitation in power?

 

[BJQ87]

If the question was "does God create rocks so big that he couldnt lift", then it would be perfectly fine to say "no, he does not". But the question is "can god make a rock so big that he couldnt lift it" is the actual question, so your reply "no, he does not" is a nonanswer

However, if you believe God can create an object too big for him to lift, then he lifts it, then your god exists just as much as shapeless cubes and square circles.

I never infered "no he does not" was an answer to the question "can God create an object too big for him to lift." I infered that he can create an object too big for him to lift then lift it.

I added that he has the ability to do it but does not. If you are theoretically questioning God's omnipotence, such as this argument of the rock is, then I have a theoretical answer.

This would mean that circles and cubes are determined by God's will, and he created them to be as they are. That circles and cubes are not necessary to natural existence, since existence=God+everything he creates, and are only applicable to everything he creates. If God is above the authority of circles and cubes, does that conclude he does not exist? No, it simply concludes you can't understand Him from your point of view, which makes perfect sense if God does exist.

 

[FreezBee]

Is not breaking his promises a limitation to power? no. Is not being able to sin a limitation to power? no. Is not being able to not exist a limitation to power? no.

On the other hand, it is my limitation of power to have the ability to break promises, sin, and not exist.

First: Welcome to these forums

Then: I'll answer the same as to the question, whether God can make 2+2 = 5:

God has the power alright, but he also has the will to not use that power.


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[TeddyKGB]

Then: I'll answer the same as to the question, whether God can make 2+2 = 5:

God has the power alright, but he also has the will to not use that power.

Does that really make sense to you? Having 2+2 = 5 has real-world implications. How can God make that happen without changing the meaning of 2 or 5 or one of the operators or some combination of those, which are arbitrarily assigned by us in the first place?

 

[FreezBee]

Does that really make sense to you? Having 2+2 = 5 has real-world implications. How can God make that happen without changing the meaning of 2 or 5 or one of the operators or some combination of those, which are arbitrarily assigned by us in the first place?

Ooh, who am I to speak on behalf of God?

Of course, you're right, but with God declared omnipotent we do have this kind of logical problems. My answer was a way of getting out of those problems. Look at it this way: there's a lot of thing we can do, but that does not mean we have to do them. I simply introduce a distinction between power and will.

Assuming that God is the author of the rules for addition of whole numbers, the quesrion is a question of, whether God can go against his own rules, that is, whether God can sin. My answer says, that, yes, God can sin, but being God re can restrain himself from actually doing that sin. It's all just a question of theological logic. There are no real-world implications, because God is not going to use that power.

As for humans, we are not God, so we tend to break our own rules, and that indeed may occasionally have real real-world implications. But this has no impact on the omnipotency of God.

Is this ok?


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[FSTDT]

I added that he has the ability to do it but does not. If you are theoretically questioning God's omnipotence, such as this argument of the rock is, then I have a theoretical answer.

What would be an adequate real question and what would be your real answer?

This would mean that circles and cubes are determined by God's will, and he created them to be as they are. That circles and cubes are not necessary to natural existence, since existence=God+everything he creates, and are only applicable to everything he creates. If God is above the authority of circles and cubes, does that conclude he does not exist?

So if he decided never to make cubes the way he did, they wouldnt have a shape?

BJQ, nothing that is internally contradictory can exist in any possible universe, and to say cubes would be shapeless without gods interference is incoherent at best - obviously, the shape of cubes is a necessary property of cubes, and they would have their shape with or without the existence of God. If you want to argue otherwise, then you would be talking incoherent nonsense.

No, it simply concludes you can't understand Him from your point of view, which makes perfect sense if God does exist.

If we cant understand him from our point of view, then we can say nothing rational about him (this includes that we could never say that God exists or doesnt exist, or that people were made in his image or not). As soon as you deny the capacity to understand God from a personal point of view, you dismiss all ascriptions to him, and deny a basis for theology altogether.

 

[fuzzyh]

The OP is a nonsense statement. It is clear that God is allpowerful and it's nonsensical to ask if he can create a rock so heavy he can't pick it up. The major error to this is that God is all power in the sense that he can do all things logically possible.

God cannot make these rocks, just as God cannot make circle squares or 2 sided triangles. What is a 3 sided triangle? nonsense.

 

[BJQ87]

If we cant understand him from our point of view, then we can say nothing rational about him (this includes that we could never say that God exists or doesnt exist, or that people were made in his image or not). As soon as you deny the capacity to understand God from a personal point of view, you dismiss all ascriptions to him, and deny a basis for theology altogether.

God has a will, God has a word. I didn't mean you can't understand him at all in any way, I meant that you can not know God in entirety.

 

[Gracchus]

I am always astonished at people who assign attributes to God without evidence. (Omnipotent, omniscient, ubiquitous, merciful, just, merciful, etc.)

The real God need be none of these things as a matter of logic. Maybe he creates universes and then grabs a bag of popcorn or a bottle of bourbon and sits back to see how it turns out.

 

[WAB]

Actually there are some things that the LORD cannot do... He cannot lie and He can not change in essence.