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Omelas

tall73

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I imagine some of you are familiar with the story of Omelas. It is a short story meant to evoke thought about whether a person should support a corrupt system. It is in some ways a flawed story to my mind, but still makes a point.

In the story the author describes a city that is essentially a utopia. Everyone is happy, etc. I won't post the description of it because it is not necessary and has some elements that folks might object to (drug use, etc.). Just imagine your own concept of a utopia.

After describing the utopia the author, Ursula LeGuin writes the following:




Do you believe? Do you accept the festival, the city, the joy? No?
Then let me describe one more thing.

In a basement under one of the beautiful public buildings of Omelas,
or perhaps in the cellar of one of its spacious private homes, there
is a room. It has one locked door, and no window. A little light seeps
in dustily between cracks in the boards, secondhand from a cobwebbed
window somewhere across the cellar. In one corner of the little room a
couple of mops, with stiff, clotted, foul-smelling heads, stand near a
rusty bucket. The floor is dirt, a little damp to the touch, as cellar
dirt usually is.

The room is about three paces long and two wide: a mere broom closet
or disused tool room. In the room, a child is sitting. It could be a
boy or a girl. It looks about six, but actually is nearly ten. It is
feeble-minded. Perhaps it was born defective, or perhaps it has become
imbecile through fear, malnutrition, and neglect. It picks its nose
and occasionally fumbles vaguely with its toes or genitals, as it sits
hunched in the corner farthest from the bucket and the two mops. It is
afraid of the mops. It finds them horrible. It shuts its eyes, but it
knows the mops are still standing there; and the door is locked; and
nobody will come. The door is always locked; and nobody ever comes,
except that sometimes--the child has no understanding of time or
interval--sometimes the door rattles terribly and opens, and a person,
or several people, are there. One of them may come in and kick the
child to make it stand up. The others never come close, but peer in at
it with frightened, disgusted eyes. The food bowl and the water jug
are hastily filled, the door is locked; the eyes disappear. The people
at the door never say anything, but the child, who has not always
lived in the tool room, and can remember sunlight and its mother's
voice, sometimes speaks. "I will be good, " it says. "Please let me
out. I will be good!" They never answer. The child used to scream for
help at night, and cry a good deal, but now it only makes a kind of
whining, "eh-haa, eh-haa," and it speaks less and less often. It is so
thin there are no calves to its legs; its belly protrudes; it lives on
a half-bowl of corn meal and grease a day. It is naked. Its buttocks
and thighs are a mass of festered sores, as it sits in its own
excrement continually.

They all know it is there, all the people of Omelas. Some of them have
come to see it, others are content merely to know it is there. They
all know that it has to be there. Some of them understand why, and
some do not, but they all understand that their happiness, the beauty
of their city, the tenderness of their friendships, the health of
their children, the wisdom of their scholars, the skill of their
makers, even the abundance of their harvest and the kindly weathers of
their skies, depend wholly on this child's abominable misery.


This is usually explained to children when they are between eight and
twelve, whenever they seem capable of understanding; and most of those
who come to see the child are young people, though often enough an
adult comes, or comes back, to see the child. No matter how well the
matter has been explained to them, these young spectators are always
shocked and sickened at the sight. They feel disgust, which they had
thought themselves superior to. They feel anger, outrage, impotence,
despite all the explanations. They would like to do something for the
child. But there is nothing they can do. If the child were brought up
into the sunlight out of that vile place, if it were cleaned and fed
and comforted, that would be a good thing, indeed; but if it were
done, in that day and hour all the prosperity and beauty and delight
of Omelas would wither and be destroyed. Those are the terms. To
exchange all the goodness and grace of every life in Omelas for that
single, small improvement: to throw away the happiness of thousands
for the chance of happiness of one: that would be to let guilt within
the walls indeed.

The terms are strict and absolute; there may not even be a kind word
spoken to the child.

Often the young people go home in tears, or in a tearless rage, when
they have seen the child and faced this terrible paradox. They may
brood over it for weeks or years. But as time goes on they begin to
realize that even if the child could be released, it would not get
much good of its freedom: a little vague pleasure of warmth and food,
no real doubt, but little more. It is too degraded and imbecile to
know any real joy. It has been afraid too long ever to be free of
fear. Its habits are too uncouth for it to respond to humane
treatment. Indeed, after so long it would probably be wretched without
walls about it to protect it, and darkness for its eyes, and its own
excrement to sit in. Their tears at the bitter injustice dry when they
begin to perceive the terrible justice of reality, and to accept
it. Yet it is their tears and anger, the trying of their generosity
and the acceptance of their helplessness, which are perhaps the true
source of the splendor of their lives. Theirs is no vapid,
irresponsible happiness. They know that they, like the child, are not
free. They know compassion. It is the existence of the child, and
their knowledge of its existence, that makes possible the nobility of
their architecture, the poignancy of their music, the profundity of
their science. It is because of the child that they are so gentle with
children. They know that if the wretched one were not there sniveling
in the dark, the other one, the flute-player, could make no joyful
music as the young riders line up in their beauty for the race in the
sunlight of the first morning of summer.

Now do you believe them? Are they not more credible? But there is one
more thing to tell, and this is quite incredible.

At times one of the adolescent girls or boys who go see the child does
not go home to weep or rage, does not, in fact, go home at
all. Sometimes also a man or a woman much older falls silent for a day
or two, then leaves home. These people go out into the street, and
walk down the street alone. They keep walking, and walk straight out
of the city of Omelas, through the beautiful gates. They keep walking
across the farmlands of Omelas. Each one goes alone, youth or girl,
man or woman.

Night falls; the traveler must pass down village streets, between the
houses with yellow- lit windows, and on out into the darkness of the
fields. Each alone, they go west or north, towards the mountains. They
go on. They leave Omelas, they walk ahead into the darkness, and they
do not come back. The place they go towards is a place even less
imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe
it at all. It is possible that it does not exist. But they seem to
[FONT=&quot]know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.[/FONT]




Now to my application of the story. I am not aware of the Adventist church engaging in deprivation of children. But if the Adventist church's fundamental beliefs rob some of assurance of salvation, teach others legalism as some of the progressives have contended, then should we support it? Or should we walk away?

Now the story above is flawed in that it might be best for someone to just kidnap the child. But let's just make a twist on the story and say there are posted guards so you cannot.

The point is that for those who understand the issues in the Adventist church they face a big question--do you enjoy the benefits of the church knowing that it is leading people astray? Do you fight for change when you realize it doesn't want to change and is content to keep silent on the issues that many know about?

Do you support a system that leads people astray because it is what you are used to or where you grew up or because you like many things about it?

I am posting this for discussion. I am not trying to say that folks who stay in the church are going to hell, or doing wrong etc.. I believe many are trying to do what they can to change the church. The question for me is at what point do you walk away? At what point does the church do more damage than good? This is especially true when there are other churches doing good.

On the other hand if the child could be freed--if the church could deal with its issues, that would be better yet, because then no one would be led astray. . But what is the likelyhood? And can you do more by leading with your example of not supporting the system?

These are things I wonder about.
 

StormyOne

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the assumption is that God would allow a system to lead people astray indefinitely.... I don't think that is the case...likewise, just because folks are members doesn't mean they are buying into everything that is being taught by the .org..... on a side note the part of the story you shared reminds me of The Storm of the Century by Stephen King....
 
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tall73

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Even if you assume that they would not be led astray indefinitely why would we want lives to be wasted supporting a flawed system? And many do buy into everything, or at least enough of everything that the main point of the gospel is obscured.

Haven't read the King work.
 
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StormyOne

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Even if you assume that they would not be led astray indefinitely why would we want lives to be wasted supporting a flawed system? And many do buy into everything, or at least enough of everything that the main point of the gospel is obscured.

Haven't read the King work.
is there a bigger picture in which God does directs the paths of everyone so that if he is directing there is no such thing as wasted time? I mean was Moses 40 yrs tending sheep wasted?

Or do you subscribe to the idea that we cannot waste any time on any part of our journey?
 
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tall73

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is there a bigger picture in which God does directs the paths of everyone so that if he is directing there is no such thing as wasted time? I mean was Moses 40 yrs tending sheep wasted?

Or do you subscribe to the idea that we cannot waste any time on any part of our journey?


No, I am not suggesting that there cannot be wasted time on the journey. I am suggesting that some time is wasted when folks are distracted from the main point years on end. I am suggesting that people living in fear needlessly due to a theology that says they can have no assurance is unfortunate and unnecessary.
 
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StormyOne

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No, I am not suggesting that there cannot be wasted time on the journey. I am suggesting that some time is wasted when folks are distracted from the main point years on end. I am suggesting that people living in fear needlessly due to a theology that says they can have no assurance is unfortunate and unnecessary.
ok.... I agree... no need to live in fear or wallow in man-made guilt... is the analogy of Plato's Cave applicable here?
 
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NightEternal

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Catholicism and Judaism were both as corrupt as religious systems could get, and both had a mangled, twisted understanding of salvation.

Luther did not leave his church and Paul did not leave his church either. Rather, they remained members and fought for change and reform from the inside, affecting and influencing as many individuals they possibly could.

Even Jesus Himself was a Jew until His death, His name never taken off the books. But He turned the system upside down and addressed the problem areas that needed to change. :thumbsup:

I don't know, I think it is still possible to be a member of a corrupt organization and not have it affect you or change your own personal convictions.

But, that may just be me.
 
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tall73

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Catholicism and Judaism were both as corrupt as religious systems could get, and both had a mangled, twisted understanding of salvation.

Luther did not leave his church and Paul did not leave his church either. Rather, they remained members and fought for change and reform from the inside, affecting and influencing as many individuals they possibly could.

Even Jesus Himself was a Jew until His death, His name never taken off the books. But He turned the system upside down and addressed the problem areas that needed to change. :thumbsup:

I don't know, I think it is still possible to be a member of a corrupt organization and not have it affect you or change your own personal convictions.

But, that may just be me.


I mentioned this in the other thread but in Luther's time there were not a lot of options for Christianity in the west. That is not true anymore.

And it could be argued that Jesus, while extending Judaism to its conclusion, also made Himself the test of faith in a new movement.

You expressed in the previous thread that you don't think Adventism will be turned upside down. Perhaps it yet will. Perhaps it will not.

I am just curious as to why some stay and some do not.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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The main wrong assumption here is that there is somewhere out there a church that will not lead any astray. I have not ever seen such a church. I have only seen churches that mix truth and error. In fact I am sure that I still mix truth with error. So if I focus upon potential error that will make me think that that error will lead all astray. Life is a mixture of truth and error within ourselves and every one else. If you accept that there is some church with only truth then you are in error and if you grant that church it's assumption that they are only filled with truth then they are in error.

As I was reading the story I thought of just how in real life we are like the Omelas. Our prosperity has been built upon the sacrifice of others. Those thousands who stormed the beaches at Normandy, who suffered in prison camps. The very heart of Christianity is the sacrifice of the one for the many.
 
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tall73

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The main wrong assumption here is that there is somewhere out there a church that will not lead any astray. I have not ever seen such a church. I have only seen churches that mix truth and error. In fact I am sure that I still mix truth with error. So if I focus upon potential error that will make me think that that error will lead all astray. Life is a mixture of truth and error within ourselves and every one else. If you accept that there is some church with only truth then you are in error and if you grant that church it's assumption that they are only filled with truth then they are in error.

As I was reading the story I thought of just how in real life we are like the Omelas. Our prosperity has been built upon the sacrifice of others. Those thousands who stormed the beaches at Normandy, who suffered in prison camps. The very heart of Christianity is the sacrifice of the one for the many.

a. We all benefit from those ,but many were voluntary (not all due to the draft). Now perhaps cheap labor by children in sweatshops might be a better analogy.

b. I don't disagree that there are mixtures of truth and error out there. But I don't hold all truths to be of equal importance. If Adventists often have the gospel wrong does it matter what they got right?
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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a. We all benefit from those ,but many were voluntary (not all due to the draft). Now perhaps cheap labor by children in sweatshops might be a better analogy.

b. I don't disagree that there are mixtures of truth and error out there. But I don't hold all truths to be of equal importance. If Adventists often have the gospel wrong does it matter what they got right?
Everything matters but it is all a matter of degrees. There are two very great and destructive doctrines in current Christianity. They are the idea of eternal torment and the idea that God demands punishment before He can forgive (Penal Atonement theory).

Those are nasty doctrines, here most don't believe the first but do believe the second. As horrible as either of those doctrines are there are people who fully believe them both who love God and are committed to Him. Fortunately for us the God we serve is likely not the God we make Him out to be. In reality most of Christianity has the Gospel wrong. Yet even wrong they changed the world for the better. God works where you are at.
 
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tall73

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Everything matters but it is all a matter of degrees. There are two very great and destructive doctrines in current Christianity. They are the idea of eternal torment and the idea that God demands punishment before He can forgive (Penal Atonement theory).

Those are nasty doctrines, here most don't believe the first but do believe the second. As horrible as either of those doctrines are there are people who fully believe them both who love God and are committed to Him. Fortunately for us the God we serve is likely not the God we make Him out to be. In reality most of Christianity has the Gospel wrong. Yet even wrong they changed the world for the better. God works where you are at.


I keep thinking I am going to have that conversation with you. But I haven't done it yet.

If we do let's have it in the GT section. You can have the EO on your side :)

There are a lot of folks who have thought it over there.
 
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StormyOne

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I keep thinking I am going to have that conversation with you. But I haven't done it yet.

If we do let's have it in the GT section. You can have the EO on your side :)

There are a lot of folks who have thought it over there.
well whenever you all get started post a link, I would be interested in reading the exchange....
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Hum

I was thinking what could the SDA chruch loose and still survive,

1. EGW as prophet, not essential for some nice but not really necessary
2. the IJ, ONLY purpose is to save the millerite connection
3. 2300 day, this is just miscalculation and only serves to protect the millerite connection
4. Jesus in MHP in 1844, only serves to protect millerite origins
5. 1000 year regin in heaven, only believe beceause EGW said so , can only be proven by egw.
6. sunday Law, is not taucht in scripture. History cannot support it. conclusion based on false premise


Sabbath, state of the dead and Second coming are pretty solid,


I believe the purpose of the SDA chruch is to revive, Sabbath keeping in the Christian Chruch. this is the mission.
 
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freeindeed2

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Hum

I was thinking what could the SDA chruch loose and still survive,

1. EGW as prophet, not essential for some nice but not really necessary
2. the IJ, ONLY purpose is to save the millerite connection
3. 2300 day, this is just miscalculation and only serves to protect the millerite connection
4. Jesus in MHP in 1844, only serves to protect millerite origins
5. 1000 year regin in heaven, only believe beceause EGW said so , can only be proven by egw.
6. sunday Law, is not taucht in scripture. History cannot support it. conclusion based on false premise
The EGW/SDA 'gospel of health', as she put it. Not that living as healthy as possible isn't a good thing, but it's certainly not linked to salvation/spirituality/etc. as it comes across in her writings. And from what I've seen the core health issues she was 'right' about were written about by others prior to her anyway, so no 'divine' inspiration there. And some of her writings on health were just way out there, flat out wrong, and a few even dangerous to one's health.

I agree with your list.

Sabbath, state of the dead and Second coming are pretty solid,
Sabbath - if the covenants are 'openly' explored is resolved (BTW-it's not wrong to 'do church' on Saturday, or any other day:eek: ). Maybe drop the whole 'final test of loyalty to God', 'separating wall between the lost and the saved', and 'seal of God' act, and it certainly would be tolerated by the larger body of Christ.

State of the dead - systematic theology does not necessarily CLEARLY resolve this, but it does take the WHOLE Bible into account, rather than just using a few proof-texts to establish a preconceived agenda (either way). Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology' is a good read (although it's about 1300 pages long!). It's fair in presenting the different existing beliefs, arguments for each and arguments against.

Second coming - let go of that one and you really sever yourself from Christianity and the promised return of Christ from his own mouth. Good one to keep!

If it's keeping a 'unique' identity among sectarian Christian groups, then I can see why each would be important to hang on to. But the first two don't have anything to do with salvation (and believing in the 3rd doesn't 'cause' one to be saved either).

I believe the purpose of the SDA chruch is to revive, Sabbath keeping in the Christian Chruch. this is the mission.
I completely agree. Ultimately SDA evangelism has a bent toward getting all Christians to observe the Sabbath (or at least the SDA version of it). I've done it and seen it in every part of the world I've been involved with it (and I've circled the globe).

Bottom line: it still ALL comes down to Jesus Christ and whether his Spirit (God) lives in us (the true seal of God).

In Christ alone...
 
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Adventtruth

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Now to my application of the story. I am not aware of the Adventist church engaging in deprivation of children. But if the Adventist church's fundamental beliefs rob some of assurance of salvation, teach others legalism as some of the progressives have contended, then should we support it? Or should we walk away?

Now the story above is flawed in that it might be best for someone to just kidnap the child. But let's just make a twist on the story and say there are posted guards so you cannot.

The point is that for those who understand the issues in the Adventist church they face a big question--do you enjoy the benefits of the church knowing that it is leading people astray? Do you fight for change when you realize it doesn't want to change and is content to keep silent on the issues that many know about?

Do you support a system that leads people astray because it is what you are used to or where you grew up or because you like many things about it?

I am posting this for discussion. I am not trying to say that folks who stay in the church are going to hell, or doing wrong etc.. I believe many are trying to do what they can to change the church. The question for me is at what point do you walk away? At what point does the church do more damage than good? This is especially true when there are other churches doing good.

On the other hand if the child could be freed--if the church could deal with its issues, that would be better yet, because then no one would be led astray. . But what is the likelyhood? And can you do more by leading with your example of not supporting the system?

These are things I wonder about.


And these are issues all of us who saw in the begining of the scales falling from our eyes have faced. I know I did. And I stayed to try to change the local church. I loved what the church stood for, but in reality, I had to force self into realising it was only a dream, a fantasy. Once I understood Mrs. White had a very fertile imagination, I saw how the church was upside down and top heavy. To this day I can't understand why most of its members keep sending most of its funds to the local conference? The local church I was a part of had no money to do anything. It collected a lots of money, and most of it went to the local conference. But thats a story for another day.

After I was labeled, and after I understood the local church was bigger than I, I focused on those who wanted to hear the gospel. (The Holy Spirit always attends the truth of the gospel) Some listened, but many, many more could not even comprehend the truth. I saw with my own eyes how they could not understood Romans 7:4...some of them had not even read that passage and none of Galatians before, it went against all they had ever learned as Adventist. But I kept on plugging away. Some listened and believed. But I would not be moved until I felt compelled of God to leave, so I stayed.

Do I think a person can stay and support the Adventist church after learning the truth? Bob Dylan sang "we all gotta serve some body the devil or the Lord". And I served God by speaking the gospel to some. But I myself was dying. I continued to spread the gopsel, but was not hearing the gospel...not in church aleast. I listen to sermons on CD and the net, read books, and read my bible, but I was not in the fellowship of those who knew the gospel, I was not hearing the gospel from the pulpit. And I knew this.

Some one told me It was not enough to teach it, and not hear it. I needed the fellowship of it. This is when the compelling power of God began to move on me. The more I thought about it, the more I was compelled to move so I did. So for me I could no longer stay. I told those who would listen the gospel.

The church is bigger than all of us. I feel those who are at the top at BRI understand and know the biggest problems with the doctrines built upon the pioneers. Many speak out after retiring, while others never say a word, but the majority of the theologians know, unless they are just idiots. I believe they are just loyal...not to God but the church. Some have been turned over to their own delusions, its a promise of God.

Dylan said it best... We all gotta serve somebody

AT
 
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Avonia

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AT, I appreciate the transparency, openness, and heartfelt quality of your post. Thank you.

If I looked primarily to the Adventist church for spiritual fellowship and development, I would have been gone long ago. I now have many circles of people I spend time with who are pursuing various spiritual paths. It's been life-changing. But they are in many communities. They are also very diverse in worldview. I wouldn't want to be with any one of them all of the time, and I wouldn't want to be without any one of them.

I personally keep coming back to whether my staying in Adventism is tied to my purpose and path. I was born here! I have deep family ties. I respect those ties. I also love many aspects of the church that have nothing to do with belief. But, as I said to Tall, it is a struggle.

AT, one of the things I appreciate about your posts is that I can feel your head AND your heart!
 
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