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Olivet Discourse revisited

grafted branch

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Of course the offering of animal sacrifices that the Jews will perform in accordance with the Mt. Sinai covenant will be their act of worship of the One True God.

It does not change that Jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice that atones for sins, that washes away all sins of a person. No-one was ever made perfectly righteous by the animal sacrifices. Jesus's perfect righteousness is imputed unto us by our believing and trusting in Him and His sacrifice on the cross.

The Jews will turn to Jesus in the middle part of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.
If we both agree that future sacrifices will not be a legitimate form of worship and a cleansed temple (after the cross) will not contain sacrifices, then your essentially saying unbelieving Jews performing illegitimate acts of worship have the TOD happen to them. And after the TOD they then become true believers.

Wouldn’t this then mean that once the Jews become believers they will start to read the New Testament, come upon Matthew 24, understand what they’re reading, recognize the AOD and the predicament their in, then immediately flee without going back into their house or getting their clothes?

It doesn’t seem to me like the Jews would come to this understanding all at the same time. Perhaps they each flea one at a time, after they figure these things out.
 
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Douggg

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Wouldn’t this then mean that once the Jews become believers they will start to read the New Testament, come upon Matthew 24, understand what they’re reading, recognize the AOD and the predicament their in, then immediately flee without going back into their house or getting their clothes?
I think when the Antichrist commits the ToD, it is going to send the Jews into a state of shock and confusion for awhile. The Antichrist himself will be killed for the act, Ezekiel 28:1-10. Then brought back to life, Isaiah 14:18-20, taking on the personna as the beast of Revelation.

Which then the AoD statue image is made of him, as ordered by the false prophet, and placed on the temple mount, the holy place, viewable to all.

Yes, I agree with you that the Jews will begin to read Matthew 24, but there is another factor that will alert them to flee to the mountains - and that is there will be the two witnesses telling them what is going to take place and not to trust their thought to be messiah, that he will betray them.

It doesn't say in Revelation 11 exact details of what they will be prophesying, only that they will be prophesying the first 1260 days in Jerusalem before the person after he becomes the beast kills them.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
 
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grafted branch

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Yes, I agree with you that the Jews will begin to read Matthew 24, but there is another factor that will alert them to flee to the mountains - and that is there will be the two witnesses telling them what is going to take place and not to trust their thought to be messiah, that he will betray them.
If all this is correct then I would think that the two witnesses would be telling the new Jewish believers to avoid reading the New Testament if they are with child, else they take the risk of having an additional woe added to them. They should also avoid reading the New Testament and pray that they don’t understand it in the winter or on a sabbath.

The best time to read and understand would be when they are on top of the roof or in the field, Sunday through Friday, Spring, Summer, or Fall, while not being with children.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I think when the Antichrist commits the ToD, it is going to send the Jews into a state of shock and confusion for awhile. The Antichrist himself will be killed for the act, Ezekiel 28:1-10. Then brought back to life, Isaiah 14:18-20, taking on the personna as the beast of Revelation.

How absurd.

Which then the AoD statue image is made of him, as ordered by the false prophet, and placed on the temple mount, the holy place, viewable to all.

Speculations of the carnal minds.

It doesn't say in Revelation 11 exact details of what they will be prophesying, only that they will be prophesying the first 1260 days in Jerusalem before the person after he becomes the beast kills them.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Of course, you do not know because you do not know what power they received and what they prophesy with. As it is written:

Act 1:6-8
(6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

People will receive power from the Holy Spirit to preach Gospel to the world. This is the power God gave to His Two Witnesses. Not two men, but MANY people who are filled with Holy Spirit to prophesy Gospel. This is what Two Witnesses signify. This has NOTHING to do with your speculation of two men with supernatural power in the Middle East which is absurd and speculations based on the flawed premillennial doctrine filled with private interpretations.
 
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TribulationSigns

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If all this is correct then I would think that the two witnesses would be telling the new Jewish believers to avoid reading the New Testament if they are with child, else they take the risk of having an additional woe added to them. They should also avoid reading the New Testament and pray that they don’t understand it in the winter or on a sabbath.

Huh?? Do you really know what winter and sabbath Christ talked about, don't you? Did you even compare these with the rest of Scripture??

After the faithful witnesses of the church age, there will be no more salvation as all Elect has been secured. This is why the winter in scripture is a time of hardship, deprivation, and storms where there is a lack of stores in the field. It is a time when all the harvest is done and there can be no more increase. A time when the work in the field has ended. Like the Sabbath, it signifies a time of rest, when the earth rests from its work.

Like the Sabbath in Matthew, it also symbolizes a time when salvation has ended on earth and there can be no more work in the field. There is no more fruits of the field to harvest. It is the time when no man can work to bring an increase.

Song of Solomon 2:11
  • "For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;"
Here God is illustrating that the rain of the winter storms is past. The time of privation and hardship is gone, and with summer comes flowers and new life. But winter preceding it is illustrated as tempest, storm, trouble, a time when life is dorment. That's why I believe Matthew 24 warns, "pray our flight be not in winter."

Jeremiah 8:20
  • "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."
This is what it is talking about. A period when time has run out for man to be delivered or saved. Pray that man's flight from Judea is not at a time when salvation has ended and no man can work. Because if we are not saved then (Revelation 7:3), we will be under the judgment and wrath of God.


The best time to read and understand would be when they are on top of the roof or in the field, Sunday through Friday, Spring, Summer, or Fall, while not being with children.

What are you talking about? It does not seem that you understand what Mathew 24:15-25 talked about. For example in verse 17, why did Christ warn those who are on the housetop not to come down? Do you know what house is this that Christ talked about? What does the field refer to where they need to return back to take clothes? What clothes is it? Why it is woe upon them with the child because they could not suck. Who is this mother who can't give suck? YOu need to understand these spiritually discerned because it has nothing to do with Jews in the MIddle East during the reign of the Antichrist with his speaking statue.
 
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Trivalee

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I don't suffer any illusions about being able to change many minds, but I still think it's worth the effort. I've been studying this many years, and it really seems to be a headache in the study of biblical prophecy. Way back in the early 70s I read Hal Lindsey's book, "The Late Great Planet Earth," and really enjoyed it. He saw amazing coincidences between the news of our time and biblical prophecies that seem to be coming to precise fulfillment.

Unfortunately, Lindsey did something that I believe has been disastrous to the understanding of biblical prophecy. And I'm sure he's not the only one. He had a tremendous desire to convert biblical prophecies that had already been fulfilled into future prophecies. Why waste time reading prophecies that had already been fulfilled, such as prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon? Why not focus on prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled so that we can show people how God's word is still relevant in our own day?

And so, Lindsey converted what Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse from being about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans to being an endtime prophecy of the generation in which Israel would be reborn as a nation. The passage reads, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." This prophecy was actually being spoken about Jesus' own generation--"this generation" referred to the generation in which Jesus lived.

But Lindsey converted this into a prophecy of the last generation. "This generation" was, for Lindsey, the generation that saw the rebirth of the Israeli nation. The generation that sees the rebirth of Israel would not pass away until the Rapture of the Church takes place first.

Well sadly, when many like myself who like to point out this error do so we are called "Preterists" as a name of insult. Preterists was a particular school of thought that arose in history to declare not just that "this generation" was fulfilled in the Roman conquest, but also that the *entirety of the book of Revelation* was fulfilled in the Early Church.

I don't believe that--I'm not a Preterist. But I do believe that Preterists were at least partly right, in particular the part about "this generation" referring to the conquest of Jerusalem by Rome. I believe that the book of Revelation does refer to the endtimes, when the Antichrist will arise and reign for 3.5 years.

So we have this battle between the choice between an historial fulfillment or a future fulfillment. Can we know the difference? Of course we can, but often a person is taught a particular position when he is moldable, and is not likely to change his or her position without a firm conviction that the person they trusted was not entirely trustworthy. Since Lindsey has been a faithful Christian throughout his life, and has done a lot of good, it is difficult to break trust in him in areas where he has been wrong.

My purpose here is not to disparage teachers like Lindsey, but only to point out that good people can at times be wrong. Once you begin with a wrong point of view, a lot of the picture gets muddied, and a lot of rationalization takes place. In the end, the Olivet Discourse can become nearly incomprehensible. Even trying to look at it correctly finds obstacles because so many of the points have been corrupted along with the main point. What is the "great tribulation?" What are "all these things?"

All of these questions can be quite easily answered, but not if one has been indoctrinated in a false position, and has therefore corrupted his view on all of the points necessary to make his picture consistent. "All these things" becomes "the Rapture." The "great tribulation" becomes "the reign of Antichrist."

In reality, "all these things" in context was only ever meant to refer not to Christ's return but to the main point, referring to all the things connected with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the destruction of the temple, and the initial signs that presaged that event. The "great tribulation" explicitly described the fall out from the destruction of Jerusalem in an age-long exile of the Jewish People.

But I'm not going to convince many people, although I would wish to. Understanding historical prophecies have great value in teaching moral lessons, quite apart from proving prophecies are still coming true today. The fall of Babylon teaches us how we need to remain faithful to God's moral laws, unlike Israel who committed gross idolatry in the days before their capture and exile.

We do not need to make the Olivet Discourse entirely about the future, including the rebirth of Israel and the rise of Antichrist. There is plenty in that discourse that describes both historically-fulfilled prophecy and future prophecy. We do not need the Abomination of Desolation to be about the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation to be about the Reign of Antichrist. The exile of the Jews described in that Discourse is still taking place today, until the nation of Israel is restored to faith at Christ's return.

It's sad but it's now 2023, and well past the failure of Lindsey's prediction that the Rapture of the Church would take place in the generation of Israel's rebirth (1948). We're way overdue to look at this errant interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. And we need to get past the name-calling and false association with Preterism. The Early Church Fathers held to the historical interpretation of this Discourse, and I think we should too, even if certain terms continue to represent some headaches. Thanks for listening.
I wish to address one specific remark from your exegesis.
1-"We do not need the Abomination of Desolation to be about the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation to be about the Reign of Antichrist". Please clarify whether you believe by this statement, that the end time G.T. at the time of the Antichrist has been negated.
 
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RandyPNW

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I wish to address one specific remark from your exegesis.
1-"We do not need the Abomination of Desolation to be about the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation to be about the Reign of Antichrist". Please clarify whether you believe by this statement, that the end time G.T. at the time of the Antichrist has been negated.
It's been awhile since I've heard from you, my English brother! Glad you're still around. I've danced around various places, and am here on occasion.

To answer your question, I believe the term "Great Tribulation" has come to refer, in our time, to the Reign of Antichrist. And if that's how Christians wish to use the word in the context of their choice, I'm fine with that. There will be tribulation for Christians and non-Christians alike during the reign of Antichrist.

But in terms of how the Bible uses the term in the Olivet Discourse, I think the "Great Tribulation" refers specifically to God's punishment directed against the majority of the Jewish People, costing them their worship and their nation. After 70 AD, they were sent into exile for the duration of the NT age, which of course includes the time of Antichrist.

This great tribulation may also apply, by extension, to Christian nations that like Israel fall into disrepair and apostasy. As a result they, like Israel, come under judgment, while they persecute true Christians. "Great Tribulation," as such, can apply to the entire period of NT Christianity, as Christians suffer the judgments God directs at the pagan world, and righteous saints suffer abuse and persecution.

But primarily, the Olivet Discourse is an OT Jewish prophecy, directed at the Jewish experience after they have rejected Christ. I personally believe that after judgment, the Jewish remnant will be regathered into a full nation, and become Christian.
 
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Douggg

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If all this is correct then I would think that the two witnesses would be telling the new Jewish believers to avoid reading the New Testament if they are with child, else they take the risk of having an additional woe added to them. They should also avoid reading the New Testament and pray that they don’t understand it in the winter or on a sabbath.
imo, the two witnesses will be warning the Jews about their thought to be messiah from the very start of the 7 years. The time of flee to the mountains actually does not happen until day 1185 into the 7 years. I don't think the two witnesses would ever tell the Jews not to read the new testament, especially Matthew 24.
 
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TribulationSigns

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imo, the two witnesses will be warning the Jews about their thought to be messiah from the very start of the 7 years. The time of flee to the mountains actually does not happen until day 1185 into the 7 years. I don't think the two witnesses would ever tell the Jews not to read the new testament, especially Matthew 24.

:rolleyes:
 
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TribulationSigns

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Dispensationalism does not address all issues concerning the biblical covenants. In fact, they force the Covenants to pertain to a whole nation when God Himself unambiguously declared that only a remnant of it would see that Covenant promise fulfilled. Just like a remnant of Gentiles. For example, Abraham was their patriarchal father in Christ and Abraham is our patriarchal father in Christ. Both Gentiles and Jews are the seed of Abraham through Christ. And those without Christ "ARE NOT" the seed of Abraham according to God's word. Dispensationalism does not "hear" these words of God.

John 8:39-43
  • "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
  • But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
  • Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
  • Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
  • Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

This is the authority of the word, not the authority of Dispensationalist teachers. Moreover, they fail to acknowledge the Biblical record that the Covenant with Israel has been and is being fully fulfilled in the inclusion of the Gentiles into the commonwealth of Israel. And thirdly, they fail to address how the church or congregation can be a separate people of God, separate children of God, separate from Israel when God's word said they were and are grafted into the Olive Tree representing the Covenant with Israel. They obviously are not a separate tree, but one tree all being sustained by the same root that bares them.

So then, Dispensationalism is the evangelical theological system that "DOES NOT" addresses all issues concerning the biblical covenants, Israel, and the church, which is by they do not understand who Two Witnesses are and their ministry.
 
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grafted branch

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Huh?? Do you really know what winter and sabbath Christ talked about, don't you? Did you even compare these with the rest of Scripture??
At one point in my past someone convinced me that we were in the “winter” and that no one else was going to be saved. I thought we should be like the church in Philadelphia in Revelation 3:11, hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

I was convinced of this by the over spiritualizing of scriptures and ignoring any literal meaning.

I’m not arguing against a spiritual interpretation of Matthew 24:15-20 but I believe there was a literal fulfillment of this in 70AD.

Let’s look at the spiritual meaning of sabbath. Hebrews 4:1-11 gives us a very good spiritual definition. Every saved person has entered into His rest and has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Looking at Matthew 24:20, why would someone pray that their flight not be when they have entered into His rest (on the sabbath)? Certainly this verse isn’t instructing unsaved people to pray that their flight happens before they become saved.

What are you talking about? It does not seem that you understand what Mathew 24:15-25 talked about. For example in verse 17, why did Christ warn those who are on the housetop not to come down? Do you know what house is this that Christ talked about? What does the field refer to where they need to return back to take clothes? What clothes is it? Why it is woe upon them with the child because they could not suck. Who is this mother who can't give suck? YOu need to understand these spiritually discerned because it has nothing to do with Jews in the MIddle East during the reign of the Antichrist with his speaking statue.


This doesn’t make sense because I’m looking at it from Doug’s point of view. Doug has the people who are to flee in Matthew 24 only being able to understand when to flee after the AOD has occurred. Most every other view has the people who are to flee understanding the AOD prior to its occurrence, long before they actually flee.
 
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Trivalee

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It's been awhile since I've heard from you, my English brother! Glad you're still around. I've danced around various places, and am here on occasion.

To answer your question, I believe the term "Great Tribulation" has come to refer, in our time, to the Reign of Antichrist. And if that's how Christians wish to use the word in the context of their choice, I'm fine with that. There will be tribulation for Christians and non-Christians alike during the reign of Antichrist.

But in terms of how the Bible uses the term in the Olivet Discourse, I think the "Great Tribulation" refers specifically to God's punishment directed against the majority of the Jewish People, costing them their worship and their nation. After 70 AD, they were sent into exile for the duration of the NT age, which of course includes the time of Antichrist.

This great tribulation may also apply, by extension, to Christian nations that like Israel fall into disrepair and apostasy. As a result they, like Israel, come under judgment, while they persecute true Christians. "Great Tribulation," as such, can apply to the entire period of NT Christianity, as Christians suffer the judgments God directs at the pagan world, and righteous saints suffer abuse and persecution.

But primarily, the Olivet Discourse is an OT Jewish prophecy, directed at the Jewish experience after they have rejected Christ. I personally believe that after judgment, the Jewish remnant will be regathered into a full nation, and become Christian.
It's a pleasure to see you after so long. I come here once in a while and must confess it's not as much fun as in the former platform. For what it's worth, I'm yet to find a forum as stimulating and engaging as our former platform.

My understanding of the great tribulation is that it is specifically an end-time event. If you read Matthew's account (chapter 24) you'll find that the G.T. is associated with the eschaton. For example, in verse 21, we are told that if it is not shortened no flesh would survive. But for the sake of the elect, it will be shortened. v-23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. V-24 continues to highlight the G.T. as an event that will precede the return of our Lord.

You will recall that we have discussed Luke's account in the past which I find very complicated and confusing. I believe Luke tried to separate the event of 70 AD from the end-time great tribulation, but I don't think he quite succeeded compared to Matthew's account which is straightforward.
 
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RandyPNW

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It's a pleasure to see you after so long. I come here once in a while and must confess it's not as much fun as in the former platform. For what it's worth, I'm yet to find a forum as stimulating and engaging as our former platform.

My understanding of the great tribulation is that it is specifically an end-time event. If you read Matthew's account (chapter 24) you'll find that the G.T. is associated with the eschaton. For example, in verse 21, we are told that if it is not shortened no flesh would survive. But for the sake of the elect, it will be shortened. v-23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. V-24 continues to highlight the G.T. as an event that will precede the return of our Lord.

You will recall that we have discussed Luke's account in the past which I find very complicated and confusing. I believe Luke tried to separate the event of 70 AD from the end-time great tribulation, but I don't think he quite succeeded compared to Matthew's account which is straightforward.
Yes, I've had the same discussion a number of times with different people. At least, my view, which is that the Great Tribulation is the *entire age* of Jewish suffering, includes your view that it is connected to the eschaton. After all, in my view the Jewish era of tribulation ends at Christ's Return, when their nation is spiritually restored. And in my view, Jewish Christians are persecuted, and wrath is poured out on the false Christs of Judaism and Jewish apostates.

I've tried several forums, and they always take getting used to. There are different strengths and different weaknesses of each one, I'm sure. For awhile I found a place that tried to be a continuation of our former forum, but it turned out to be a huge disappointment. Some familiar friends were there, but it came under the management of a transgender. When I offended him with my "Christian" position on transgenderism and dysphoria, he cut me off temporarily. I never looked back.

Then I spent time on a forum led by someone who had been on our previous forum. That platform got taken over by some woman who dominated with crazy obsessions about sexuality. A number of residents of that platform left--do did I.

Finally, I've been here: Eschatology & Prophecy Forum

I still have a desire to explore, with brothers and sisters, some of these subjects that I've studied for decades. I have the hope that I can save steps for some of those studying those subjects and may be stuck. Take care, my friend--hope things go well for you!
 
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Trivalee

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Yes, I've had the same discussion a number of times with different people. At least, my view, which is that the Great Tribulation is the *entire age* of Jewish suffering, includes your view that it is connected to the eschaton. After all, in my view the Jewish era of tribulation ends at Christ's Return, when their nation is spiritually restored. And in my view, Jewish Christians are persecuted, and wrath is poured out on the false Christs of Judaism and Jewish apostates.

I've tried several forums, and they always take getting used to. There are different strengths and different weaknesses of each one, I'm sure. For awhile I found a place that tried to be a continuation of our former forum, but it turned out to be a huge disappointment. Some familiar friends were there, but it came under the management of a transgender. When I offended him with my "Christian" position on transgenderism and dysphoria, he cut me off temporarily. I never looked back.

Then I spent time on a forum led by someone who had been on our previous forum. That platform got taken over by some woman who dominated with crazy obsessions about sexuality. A number of residents of that platform left--do did I.

Finally, I've been here: Eschatology & Prophecy Forum

I still have a desire to explore, with brothers and sisters, some of these subjects that I've studied for decades. I have the hope that I can save steps for some of those studying those subjects and may be stuck. Take care, my friend--hope things go well for you!
Thanks a lot, Randy. I will try the 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' to see if it's more stimulating.
 
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