Oldest rock in the world 2 days after creation (embedded age)

[Frank Robert]

He told His Own story and gave it to man. Beware of the spirit that tells a different story. Or that inspires man to interpret the natural deceptively to reach another story

I don't think God is a deceiver, or that science is anti Christian

Science goes where the natural is. It cannot go anywhere else ever. Such as to creation.

There is no inherent conflict between believing Jesus is our savior and accepting the scientific consensus that the Earth is old

Only after matter comes to exist.

We differ in our biblical interpretation

Well, I suppose the cockroaches would find it a blessing after a nuclear war. Maybe even some birds that eat carrion. The rest of us find that what science provides in this world can be a mixed blessing.

You are stretching your argument by making a claim that is not entirely true, and or by describing something as larger than it actually is.

Yes, sad. If we go back to around 2000 BC the average life expectancy was about 175 years old. Go back another 1000 years before that and the average life expectancy was about 925 years. We can play with numbers all day if you like. It's fun. If we look into the possibly near (the time after Christ returns to the planet) future the life expectancy will reach 1000! Depending on the stats we use, I think that between medical errors and medically assisted suicides (thank you science) the life expectancy of many has decreased lately.

To say I disagree is an understatement

I agree, their misunderstanding caused by working with only part of the equation (natural only)

Only after it was created. This cannot tell us about the miracle of the creation itself. In fact, using only the processes of already created things, it leads to a gross misunderstanding of where it came from and how long ago. It also leads to diabolically anti God, anti creation, and anti Scriptural models

There is no inherent conflict between science and the Bible, as they view science as a way to understand God's creation and the Bible as a source of spiritual guidance, not necessarily detailed scientific information; any perceived conflict often stems from misinterpretations of either field.

Yes. Apostasy is a prominent feature of society today.

I don't think you have any idea of what you are claiming.

That would fit! Other Christians might take it with a grain of salt, and in it's place and use it if it was a blessing etc. (as opposed to swallowing whole anything that had a little label 'scientific' on it.

The conflict between science and the bible is in your own mind.

When the theory is some half baked anti reality God opposing pipe dream formulated on the basis of religiously using only part of the equation (natural ONLY) one would hope there are still honest and believing people that would not be so deceived.

Yes, and He also died for us to let us know He was real too. Any true wisdom has both.

You mentioned that. Yes, sad. Thanks for the update

Apparently you believe that there is a conflict between science and the Bible. I am among the many who do not agree that there is an inherent conflict as they address different types of questions with many seeing them as complementary fields of knowledge.

I think you have a belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible. If nothing else, you should be aware that this belief is not common among denominations. I am not trying to change or argue against your belief as belief is a private matter. Most denominations do not think such a belief or non-belief affects salvation as Jesus said that we must confess His name and the point He is making is that in order to be saved we must acknowledge that only He can save us. ( Matthew 10:32)

 

[truthpls]

I don't think God is a deceiver, or that science is anti Christian

I can agree with the former. We would have to check the latter and see if they actually jive

There is no inherent conflict between believing Jesus is our savior and accepting the scientific consensus that the Earth is old

Except that it makes God a liar and the bible less true than the new york times

We differ in our biblical interpretation

It is starting to look that way

You are stretching your argument by making a claim that is not entirely true, and or by describing something as larger than it actually is.

So what is not true?

There is no inherent conflict between science and the Bible, as they view science as a way to understand God's creation and the Bible as a source of spiritual guidance, not necessarily detailed scientific information; any perceived conflict often stems from misinterpretations of either field.

Jesus understood it another way. As does the rest of the bible. Example: Exodus 20:11 -- For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

Does that sound like 'spiritual guidance' to you?

I don't think you have any idea of what you are claiming.

That would matter if you had some idea of truth

The conflict between science and the bible is in your own mind.

And everywhere else

Apparently you believe that there is a conflict between science and the Bible.

Only when science makes claims contrary to God

I am among the many who do not agree that there is an inherent conflict as they address different types of questions with many seeing them as complementary fields of knowledge.

I see opposites as something other than complimentary.

I think you have a belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Good work Watson

If nothing else, you should be aware that this belief is not common among denominations.

Yes. Just like rainbow flags etc etc

Most denominations do not think such a belief or non-belief affects salvation as Jesus said that we must confess His name and the point He is making is that in order to be saved we must acknowledge that only He can save us. ( Matthew 10:32)

Right. We also should know that our salvation is not a joke or lie. Just like the fact Jesus made the world and is able to save anyone is not a joke or a lie.

 

[AV1611VET]

You must be smart. You have managed to overturn almost two thousand years of Christian Bible scholarship and refute the work of leading theologians from the first century onwards, influencial thinkers like Origen, Augustin of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas. Even the great reformers Luther and Calvin could not match that achievement.

Would you like to know what Peter S. Ruckman referred to Origen as?

And would you like to know what The Trail of Blood, by J.M. Carroll has to say about Luther and Calvin?

They might be "leading theologians" in some people's eyes, but where they're at now ... well ... let's hope I'm wrong.

 

[BCP1928]

Would you like to know what Peter S. Ruckman referred to Origen as?

Wow, I never heard that. It sure goes a long way to explain where 1611ism came from, Thanks.

Here's a link in case anybody else is interested.

Peter Ruckman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And would you like to know what The Trail of Blood, by J.M. Carroll has to say about Luther and Calvin?

Great stuff, AV. It may be your doctrine, but to the rest of us it has always been pretty obscure where you are coming from. Thanks again.
The Trail of Blood - Wikipedia

BTW, I don't have all the good of an opinion of Luther and Calvin, either,

They might be "leading theologians" in some people's eyes, but where they're at now ... well ... let's hope I'm wrong.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wow, I never heard that. It sure goes a long way to explain where 1611ism came from, Thanks.

He was quite a writer!

 

[Frank Robert]

I can agree with the former. We would have to check the latter and see if they actually jive

Except that it makes God a liar and the bible less true than the new york times

That is your interpretation. It is not the majority of Christian denominations.

It is starting to look that way

So what is not true?

That belief in Jesus and God and science are incompatible/

Jesus understood it another way. As does the rest of the bible. Example: Exodus 20:11 -- For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

That is your or your denomination's interpretation.

Does that sound like 'spiritual guidance' to you?

I have a confessor for spiritual guidance.

That would matter if you had some idea of truth

I don't believe God is a deceiver. Obviously, science admits it it not spiritual truth , science simply provides the scientific facts it is able to observe.

And everywhere else

Only when science makes claims contrary to God

It is your interpretation that science makes facts contrary to God

I see opposites as something other than complimentary.

Good work Watson

Yes. Just like rainbow flags etc etc

You are assuming that I agree with rainbow flags.

I am not assuming anything about you. I can only rely to what your write. Perhaps my memory fails me, but I do not recall a conversation about rainbow flags.

Right. We also should know that our salvation is not a joke or lie. Just like the fact Jesus made the world and is able to save anyone is not a joke or a lie.

I am a Christian who believes: to be saved from our sins, we need to take these three steps:

Ask forgiveness for our sins;​

​

Be willing to turn from our sins;​

​

And believe that Jesus Christ—our Lord and Savior—died for your/out sins and rose again.​

 

[truthpls]

That is your interpretation. It is not the majority of Christian denominations.

Tell us how you interpret this?

Isaiah 48:13 -- Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.

Does that sound like evolution to you?

I have a confessor for spiritual guidance.

Me too, Jesus.

I don't believe God is a deceiver. Obviously, science admits it it not spiritual truth , science simply provides the scientific facts it is able to observe.

No, science operates on the belief that there is just the natural. With that they explain creation. No can do

It is your interpretation that science makes facts contrary to God

Explain how science says Jesus made the earth and all that is in it? Be honest

I am not assuming anything about you. I can only rely to what your write. Perhaps my memory fails me, but I do not recall a conversation about rainbow flags.

Just another example of apostasy.

I am a Christian who believes: to be saved from our sins, we need to take these three steps:

Ask forgiveness for our sins;​

​

Be willing to turn from our sins;​

​

And believe that Jesus Christ—our Lord and Savior—died for your/out sins and rose again.​

Would that be the same Jesus that created the world?

 

[dlamberth]

No one understand the details of how He breathed life into Adam. All we can do is believe He did. Or, like you, that He did not.

When we breath, we breathe the Life Force of God. What happens when we stop breathing? We become separate from the Life Force of God and our own Life Force dies.

In the case of Adam, God breathed His Life Force into Adam giving him a Soul that is an activity of God. Out of that Divine act by God, our own Soul is also an activity of God.

 

[truthpls]

When we breath, we breathe the Life Force of God.

All the animals breathed but only Adam had life from God given to him. So it isn't air. Air is a symbol or figure of the reality. The only ones who have His life and spirit in them are those who receive Jesus,

What happens when we stop breathing? We become separate from the Life Force of God and our own Life Force dies.

Actually believers then go to be with the Lord forever.

In the case of Adam, God breathed His Life Force into Adam giving him a Soul that is an activity of God.

It was not Adam breathing it was God. You said 'when we breathe'

Out of that Divine act by God, our own Soul is also an activity of God.

What act? Him breathing on Adam?

 

[Frank Robert]

Tell us how you interpret this?

Isaiah 48:13 -- Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.

Isaiah 48:13 is a powerful affirmation of God's absolute power and sovereignty as the creator of the universe.

Does that sound like evolution to you?

Why do you insist on pitting science and religion against each other and create controversy where none needs to exist? Billy Graham, evangelist, author and pastor, said, “The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book of Redemption.

Me too, Jesus.

I am not a religious scholar. I don't think you are either. I pray to Jesus asking for guidance but I also like to get opinions and guidance from someone more knowledgeable than myself.

No, science operates on the belief that there is just the natural. With that they explain creation. No can do

You like to think of science as anti-religious, not everyone agrees with you.

Explain how science says Jesus made the earth and all that is in it? Be honest

ROL! Where did you get such a weird idea?

Just another example of apostasy.

Please don't judge. As I already said several times: "the relationship between science and religion varies among Christian denominations.

Would that be the same Jesus that created the world?

There is only one Jesus.

On the other hand, there are multiple Christian denomination, some estimates put the number of denominations over 45,000. Even so I think that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus created the universe and everything in it, including the Earth. but more important is believing that Jesus is our Savior.

I think that some people who adhere to creationist or fundamentalist religious beliefs spend an excessive amount of time and energy trying to prove that the Earth is relatively young, often contradicting widely accepted scientific evidence that suggests otherwise.

 

[truthpls]

Isaiah 48:13 is a powerful affirmation of God's absolute power and sovereignty as the creator of the universe.

Not sure that says anything. The verse tells us He made earth. That means it was not a cosmic bang. The heavens were stretched out by Jesus, not some 'expansion' that had anything to do with anything but Him. The verse also confirms that the universe responds to an obeys His voice. He speaks and it happens.


John 1:3
He made all things. Nothing was made without Him making it.

That is not passive. It means God and nothing but God made all things. Not a bystander watching cosmic events or whatever

Why do you insist on pitting science and religion against each other and create controversy where none needs to exist? Billy Graham, evangelist, author and pastor, said, “The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book of Redemption.

Science is only about the natural. In no way would Billy mean that science knows how the world was created. There are many aspects to science that deal in the real world. So, the bible is not a book about say, how satellites work or how to make car batteries. Likewise, science is not something that tells us about how Jesus created the universe or man.

I am not a religious scholar. I don't think you are either.

I don't think Jesus was either, or Peter. So?

I pray to Jesus asking for guidance but I also like to get opinions and guidance from someone more knowledgeable than myself.

Remember that He said He made the world, so if anyone else tells us something different, that is bad 'guidance' Just as the serpent gave bad guidance to Eve

You like to think of science as anti-religious, not everyone agrees with you.

The false science that opposes the creation is evil.

ROL! Where did you get such a weird idea?

John 1:3 Nothing weird about the plain inspired word of God.

Please don't judge. As I already said several times: "the relationship between science and religion varies among Christian denominations.

Why would I care if all denomination went and jumped in a lake? Why would anyone care what some bank, Gas company or 'denomination' says that is opposing what God says? Seriously?

There is only one Jesus.

On the other hand, there are multiple Christian denomination, some estimates put the number of denominations over 45,000. Even so I think that the vast majority of Christians believe that Jesus created the universe and everything in it, including the Earth. but more important is believing that Jesus is our Savior.

Right, but if I call a plumber, I like to know that he really can fix things properly. If I get on a plane, I like to know they pilot really can fly the thing. When I asked for eternal life from Jesus, I knew He really was who He was and could give it. The Jesus who can raise us from the dead is God and creator. That Jesus.

I think that some people who adhere to creationist or fundamentalist religious beliefs spend an excessive amount of time and energy trying to prove that the Earth is relatively young, often contradicting widely accepted scientific evidence that suggests otherwise.

There is no scientific knowledge that says otherwise. There is natural only based belief that leaves God and creation out of all their thinking. That is not knowledge. Do you claim they know it was not God that created? Do you claim they can use a natural process to determine how creations actually worked? No.

 

[dlamberth]

The only ones who have His life and spirit in them are those who receive Jesus,

I'm drawn to the track where every Soul is an activity of God. That has a way of changing the way I view others that make me treat them more lovingly and with more compassion.

 

[truthpls]

I'm drawn to the track where every Soul is an activity of God.

So why would Jesus die then? If something in the air is actually the breath of God as you seem to have alluded to, and it affects all people, why would God have to come to earth to save as many as would believe in Him?

That has a way of changing the way I view others that make me treat them more lovingly and with more compassion.

Well, God also loved the whole world. He came down here to die for it.

For those who claimed here that the natural and only the natural and physical processes going on are all that we need to tell us about the creation of man and the world, the bible has this to say.


Romans 8:6
For the wisdom of the flesh is death: but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.


Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Science, set on the flesh, or natural is hostile toward God. That is clear in the world today!

 

[dlamberth]

So why would Jesus die then? If something in the air is actually the breath of God as you seem to have alluded to, and it affects all people, why would God have to come to earth to save as many as would believe in Him?

Well, God also loved the whole world. He came down here to die for it.

For those who claimed here that the natural and only the natural and physical processes going on are all that we need to tell us about the creation of man and the world, the bible has this to say.


Romans 8:6
For the wisdom of the flesh is death: but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.


Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Science, set on the flesh, or natural is hostile toward God. That is clear in the world today!

Your questions are exactly why I list my religious affiliation as "other". I'm not capable of limiting God's reach and presence like your able to do.

 

[truthpls]

Your questions are exactly why I list my religious affiliation as "other". I'm not capable of limiting God's reach and presence like your able to do.

That is the key. There is only one way to God. One truth. One way. One creator. One Life giver. One way to eternal life. Christians who know the creator would not be content listening to natural only fantasies and lies that keep people from knowing or finding Him and realizing He really made the universe rather than the chaotic nonsense science has thrust upon the world

 

[Frank Robert]

Not sure that says anything. The verse tells us He made earth. That means it was not a cosmic bang. The heavens were stretched out by Jesus, not some 'expansion' that had anything to do with anything but Him. The verse also confirms that the universe responds to an obeys His voice. He speaks and it happens.

You asked for my interpretation. I was not aware that you wanted a debate. Why debate? neither one of us is going to changer our understanding of the Bible.

John 1:3
He made all things. Nothing was made without Him making it.

That is not passive. It means God and nothing but God made all things. Not a bystander watching cosmic events or whatever

There is no disagreement that Jesus is the creator of all things and the source of life.

Science is only about the natural. In no way would Billy mean that science knows how the world was created. There are many aspects to science that deal in the real world. So, the bible is not a book about say, how satellites work or how to make car batteries. Likewise, science is not something that tells us about how Jesus created the universe or man.

What is your point?

I don't think Jesus was either, or Peter. So?

Remember that He said He made the world, so if anyone else tells us something different, that is bad 'guidance' Just as the serpent gave bad guidance to Eve

The false science that opposes the creation is evil

Whether science and the Bible contradict each other depends on how science and the Bible are interpreted. As I noted in several previous posts Christians, in general, do not consider science to be anti-Christian.

John 1:3 Nothing weird about the plain inspired word of God.

According to your interpretation. See above.

Why would I care if all denomination went and jumped in a lake? Why would anyone care what some bank, Gas company or 'denomination' says that is opposing what God says? Seriously?

If true, you should be able understand how other Christians feel about your denominational interpretation of the Bible.

Right, but if I call a plumber, I like to know that he really can fix things properly. If I get on a plane, I like to know they pilot really can fly the thing. When I asked for eternal life from Jesus, I knew He really was who He was and could give it. The Jesus who can raise us from the dead is God and creator. That Jesus.

You are preaching to a fellow Christian who is of a different denomination than yours yet believes God created the universe and everything in it including the Earth. I posted similarly 3 or 4 times, perhaps more.

There is no scientific knowledge that says otherwise. There is natural only based belief that leaves God and creation out of all their thinking. That is not knowledge.

Your opinions come across as too provincial. There are millions of Christian scientists, notably, Francis Collins, a former director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and leader of the Human Genome Project, identifies as an evangelical Christian.

Do you claim they know it was not God that created? Do you claim they can use a natural process to determine how creations actually worked? No.

You are making an empty agreement which you appear to have realized.

 

[AV1611VET]

There is no disagreement that Jesus is the creator of all things and the source of life.

Was Adam a mutant copy-error, made in the image and likeness of God?

 

[Frank Robert]

Was Adam a mutant copy-error, made in the image and likeness of God?

Good example of an empty argument.

 

[AV1611VET]

Good example of an empty argument.

An even better example of blasphemy.

 

[Frank Robert]

An even better example of blasphemy.

It appears that you are not aware of what blasphemy is. To say your post was "empty" i.e. divisive, is not expressing disrespect for God. No one here, which includes me, was suggesting that "Adam is or was a mutant copy-error, made in the image and likeness of God.

Science, like all fields of study, includes the range of atheists to devote (insert your religion) Christians. Please respect the fact that scientists, just like any other group of people, hold a wide range of religious beliefs, spanning from devoutly religious to staunchly atheist, and encompass all points in between; assuming all scientists are non-believers is a harmful generalization.