- May 26, 2005
- 305
- 47
- 45
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I am originally from Russia. I came to US when I was 14, and right now I am 44 years old. I was born Jewish and I came to Jesus when I was 22. After coming to Jesus I was Messianic, meaning I follow Jewish laws and go to Messianic congregations, but do it in the name of Jesus. I wanted to be a physicist since I was 9 years old. I learned calculus at 12 and I was attending college math and college physics while in high school (college math was upper division). I then was taking graduate classes in college. However, when I started graduate school I fell behind because I wasn't used to things not making total sense (since everything used to be easy for me prior to that). So I finished my first ph.d in physics at the age of 29, which is pretty late especially considering to how I used to be ahead. Then I went to India and did some postdocs. And then I came back to US and I started a second phD in math at the age of 36 and I graduated at the age of 43, which is a year ago. I taught part time last year but I lost that job (due to teaching in a way that students got confused) so right now I am at my mom's house looking for jobs. My salary was always low. As a grad student, it was around 1800/month. As a postdoc, since it was in India, it was only 420/month (India is cheap). And when I was teaching part time last year it was also around 1800/month. I am not good with counting money so I kept spending a lot more than I was making and was relying on my mom to pay my bills, who is now retired.
I have Asperger Syndrome. My voice is naturally loud and monotone. I have thick Russian accent (a lot thicker than would be expected given that I moved to the US 30 years ago). I forget to brush my hair, cut my nails, tuck in my shirt, etc. I used to forget to take a shower as well, but now I am better at remembering that part. I also forget to wash my clothes. I have never been married and I have Asperger Syndrome. I really wanted a woman ever since I was 21 but, due to Asperger, I have been making a lot of social mistakes that resulted in me never been married. I had three long-term girlfriends (one that I had from age 23 to age 24, the other I had from age 27 to age 29, the third I had from age 33 to age 34) but I met all three of them online, and it took tremendous amount of searching to find them. And none of them were the ones that I liked, I was simply settling on them.
Now, as far as when it didn't work with other women, I remember being puzzled as to what did I say wrong, etc. But now I realize that it could have been something much simpler that never occurred to me. Its not that I "said" something wrong, its that I was forgetting to take a shower and comb my hair. Nobody wants to be with the slob. Also, my voice is naturally loud and monotone. And when people hear me talk in a loud voice, it comes across as aggressive even if I don't mean it to be. Now, not talking loudly and combing my hair were the stuff my parents nagged me about since I was a teenager. But you see, they never told me that this relates to women not talking to me. So I thought there were two separate things. On the one hand, women don't talk to me because I did/say something wrong, and on the other hand there is that irrelevancy of my parents nagging me about my voice and brushing my hair. I didn't realize that the two are related.
The other thing I realized now that I didn't realize back then is that its not true that "none" of the women tried to talk to me. When I was young, there were very rare occasions when they did, but I missed out on them. But now that I am old, I no longer have those rare opportunities. Here are the rare examples from my youth:
a) When I was 19 years old, I was at a university library looking for books for my research project. I had a whole lot of books that I accidentally dropped. Four girls rushed to me and helped me pick up those books
b) Again when I was 19, I was sitting on the computer playing chess. There were two secretaries that were sitting nearby. One of them said to the other "I like it. The semester is over, we got to play chess". I liked that she referred to me as "we" so she at least regarded me as human, in contrast to most people.
c) When I was 22, I was studying in my office till very late at night and, on my way home, I would go to the grocery store to buy some food so that I can eat it before I go to bed. A cashier kept trying to talk to me. I would give her short answers in order to end the conversation since I wanted to go to bed. Yet she kept trying to talk multiple times. Then one of those days she said to her male coworker "I am in love with that guy". He asked "who?" She said "comes here, never talks". Then I was puzzled ever since as to whether she was referring to me or not.
d) Similarly, when I was 25, I was coming home past midnight and buying food at Jimmy Jones. A particular woman at Jimmy Jones kept trying to talk to me (and one of those times they even called her over because I came so she can talk) but again I was brushing her off. She was teasing me over making the same order. And then one day she said she is going off to graduate school in another state but she said she will remember my order.
e) When I was 24, I came to Hillel (I am Jewish by birth but I came to believe in Jesus as an adult -- and I am not telling about Jesus when I go to Hillel). So there were three girls that tried asking me some questions. But I realized I was getting late to my meeting with my thesis advisor so I was giving them short answers in order to get to my meeting. They didn't realize it, they probably thought I was shy. The last question they asked was "how does it feel like to be surrounded by girls". I don't even remember how I answered it.
f) When I was 24, I walked into a natural food store and asked for the supplements that would improve my social skills. Two women tried to both help me with suggestions trying to find something. Then, after I bought those supplements they suggested, one of them said "don't worry it will all work out". And then she said that if I ever feel lonely I should come there and they will talk to me. And then the two of them actually started to start a conversation with me, but I gave her short answers and left because I was getting late to the Bible studies
g) Speaking of the Bible studies, I remember one occasion when I came few minutes early and a couple of women tried to talk to me. But I dismissed them with short answers because I was about to listen to the bible studies.
Now, keeping in mind that those examples were probably the only ones in my life, it is not a lot. They were more exceptions rather than the rule. The rule is that the vast majority of people would never talk to me and would never even say hello to me. That was the case when I was young too. The difference between being young and being old is that, when I was young, 99,9% of people didn't talk to me but 0.1% tried to. But now that I am old, 100% of people don't talk to me. So, when I was young, I didn't really care about 0.1% since I was focused on the 99.9% But now that I am old, I see how this 0.1% could have made a big difference but, alas, its too late: I no longer have that 0.1% To give illustration that I am not simply reading into things, when I was 21 I was declined the participation in Birthright Israel Trip because I didn't get along socially at Hillel (I ended up going on a different Birthright Israel Trip at the age of 26 through a different state). There were a lot of other examples when people found me annoying, particularly when I was asking to help with my homework without engaging with them in other ways. But, prior to the age of 21, I wasn't taking it personally. Then at the age of 21 when I was declined participation in Birthright Israel trip I took it personally and, ever since then, I noticed how nobody talks to me and how much it hurts.
Now, why is it that 99.9% of people didn't talk to me when I was young? Because of my Asperger. But, as mentioned earlier, maybe big part of it is the simple stuff like not brushing my hair and having loud voice. Therefore, here are my two big regrets:
A. I regret that I didn't pay attention to brushing my hair and voice volume when my parents (among many others) were telling me to
B. I regret that I didn't reciprocate the little attention I did receive in the examples above
And this brings me to the main topic of this thread. So now I finally realized A and B, lets say I do make those two changes (to be honest, I haven't changed A, but what if I will?) Would it help me? No, because of my age. I can change A (I haven't so far, but I can), yet I don't have any opportunity with B. The only women that can possibly be interested in me are 40+, so most of them are divorced and Jesus said marrying divorced women is adultery and most women my age are divorced (and I do want to marry and have kids otherwise I wont feel fulfilled). But, apart from that, I also feel like I missed out on the best time of my life. I still would never know what its like to date a woman in her 20-s (yes I dated my three ex-s, but they were NOT like most women, which is the reason why they dated me to begin with).
Given the above, I would like to understand the logic of why older men are seen as creepy. First of all, let me present some arguments that I heard, along with my counter-arguments. And then I want to see if you can counter my counter-arguments.
1) They say that older men manipulate younger women. But the question is why are older men more likely to manipulate younger women? The answer is financially. Now, if that is the case, then this would logically imply that among the men that are the same age women would prefer the ones that are poor over the ones that are rich so that they can't manipulate them. But that is not what we see. Conversely, if this was the reason, then women would be fine dating older men that are poor (since poor men can't manipulate them) but thats not what we see either. More strikingly, if we take older men that are rich, then women can date them "despite" the fact that they are old "because" they are rich. This shows that correlation between age and wealth is not the reason. And, if not, then how exactly older men would manipulate them?
2) They say that older men that pursue younger women are shallow because they look at the age as the primary factor. But, by the same logic, younger women who avoid older men are likewise shallow since they also look at age as primary factor. Now, I realize that women aren't saying "hey I will date this random guy because he is young". Youth is a necessary factor but not sufficient: they also have other things in common with the specific young guy they choose to date. But then, by the same logic, maybe an older man who wants to date younger woman also sees other things in common with her? What we have in both cases is age being "an" important factor. So why is it, on one case the person is shallow and in the other case they aren't?
3) One way to answer Point 2 is that older men are at a different stage in life. But then what about my situation when I was between schools/postdocs up until last year and am still looking for job?
4) They say that older men are sexually perverted. But, biologically speaking, the sex hormones would be higher at a younger age. So why is it older men are more sexually perverted than younger ones?
5) They say women won't date older men because their friends and family won't approve. But that just leads to the question why wouldn't they approve? Which would take us right back to trying to answer 1-4.
And also here is a separate question. If you look at those examples from when I was young, not all of them were romantic. An example "f" probably wasn't. So lets say they aren't sexually attracted to older men: nobody can help sexual attraction. But why am I not encountering situations such as "f" now that I am old (keep in mind: I endountered "f" when I was 24)? I mean, straight women aren't attracted to other straight women. Yet they are clearly supportive of them. So why can't they be supportive of older men despite not being attracted to them? So what it seems like is that they don't see older men as human beings. So when I was 24 and they weren't attracted to me (in example f), I was still a human being, so they were still supportive of me. But now that I am 44, I am no longer a human being, so women avoid even talking to me much less saying anything supportive.
Now, don't get me wrong. I do want a romantic relationship and marriage. The reason I brought up friendship is that something is better than nothing. Contrary to popular stereotype, what I am looking in a romantic relationship is not sex but rather an emotional bond with a woman. And that aspect of it can be fulfilled in friendship too. Now, there are other aspects of romantic relationship that friendship won't fulfill. For example, it would help my self esteem to know that I am "the" person a woman chose rather than being just one of several. And also I would like to marry and have kids. But at least having some friends would be better than not having anything at all.
Besides, the fact that they don't even want to be friends with me suggests the reason why they might not be interested in other things either. Like could it be that the ROOT of the problem is the fact that they assume older men are not human, and then the logical consequences of that is that they can neither be friends with them not date them? And being religated to a subhuman status is a lot more painful than being deprived of dating or friendship.
Speaking of older men not being human, this brings me to the other topic. So, if you look at "4", there is that idea that older men are sexually perverted. Now, I agree, sexual perverts are not human. Because I don't understand what they are doing even from the selfish point of view. As mentioned a bit earlier, what I want from women is emotional connection. Logically speaking, sexual harassment won't bring emotional connection: exact opposite in fact. Thus, there is no selfish/logical reason I would ever want to sexually harass a woman. The fact that other men do that implies that they don't have a need for emotional connection. They only want sex. And that is something I would never understand. If I want to have a nice sensual experience, I can always go eat some nice food or something. I don't understnad why men would sacrifice their whole life (by risking going to jail for example) just for one-time sex that doesn't bring emotional fulfillment anyway. So the fact that they do it means they are subhuman since they don't have human needs such as emotional connection with a woman OR staying out of jail: they just want sex. The only problem is that I am not one of them so why do women assume that I am?
And then if we look at the guys that don't do the criminal stuff, then there is the other stuff that doesn't make sense. I read on the internet that there is a tendency for the guys to have sex and then dump a woman. That makes no sense either. Again, I want emotional connection with a woman, not sex. So why dump her? And since sex is supposed to bring people closer, it makes no sense why sex would trigger a guy to dump the girl (the exact opposite to what sex is designed to do)?
By the way, as a Christian, I don't believe in sex before marriage. But I was purposely looking at it from secular viewpoint because I am trying to understand the logic of it.
So could it be something along the following lines. "Some" men are subhuman. Women don't know who those "some men" are: nobody is a mind reader. But, being emotionally wired, they assume that those men have to be unattractive ones. Which of course is not true, but its a human nature to lump all the unpleasant things together. And so they assume unattractive men are the ones that are "only after sex", "want to use/dump them" (even though logically speaking sexual attractiveness should not be correlated to this). And, since older men are less attractive, thats why they blame older men on this.
Still though it is not totally it either. I mean, fat men are not attractive either. Yet, between younger guy who is fat and older guy of normal weight, it is the older guy of normal weight that has to bear that stereotype.
And then the other thing I was mentioning that I didn't get to yet is the whole thing about the way I dress. So here is a question: why do people judge me based on whether or not I remembered to brush my hair? Do they assume there is a genetic correlation between personality and hair stype? As in, the genes that would make hair go unruly are the same genes that would make a person to have a bad character? But if thats what they assume, then why don't they think that THEY are bad people since their hair is unruly when they just got out of bed before they brushed it? Or are they thinking they ARE bad people but they are "Cheating" by brushing their own hair, and they don't realize that everyone else "Cheats" the same way, kind of like in the tale of naked emperor?
I have Asperger Syndrome. My voice is naturally loud and monotone. I have thick Russian accent (a lot thicker than would be expected given that I moved to the US 30 years ago). I forget to brush my hair, cut my nails, tuck in my shirt, etc. I used to forget to take a shower as well, but now I am better at remembering that part. I also forget to wash my clothes. I have never been married and I have Asperger Syndrome. I really wanted a woman ever since I was 21 but, due to Asperger, I have been making a lot of social mistakes that resulted in me never been married. I had three long-term girlfriends (one that I had from age 23 to age 24, the other I had from age 27 to age 29, the third I had from age 33 to age 34) but I met all three of them online, and it took tremendous amount of searching to find them. And none of them were the ones that I liked, I was simply settling on them.
Now, as far as when it didn't work with other women, I remember being puzzled as to what did I say wrong, etc. But now I realize that it could have been something much simpler that never occurred to me. Its not that I "said" something wrong, its that I was forgetting to take a shower and comb my hair. Nobody wants to be with the slob. Also, my voice is naturally loud and monotone. And when people hear me talk in a loud voice, it comes across as aggressive even if I don't mean it to be. Now, not talking loudly and combing my hair were the stuff my parents nagged me about since I was a teenager. But you see, they never told me that this relates to women not talking to me. So I thought there were two separate things. On the one hand, women don't talk to me because I did/say something wrong, and on the other hand there is that irrelevancy of my parents nagging me about my voice and brushing my hair. I didn't realize that the two are related.
The other thing I realized now that I didn't realize back then is that its not true that "none" of the women tried to talk to me. When I was young, there were very rare occasions when they did, but I missed out on them. But now that I am old, I no longer have those rare opportunities. Here are the rare examples from my youth:
a) When I was 19 years old, I was at a university library looking for books for my research project. I had a whole lot of books that I accidentally dropped. Four girls rushed to me and helped me pick up those books
b) Again when I was 19, I was sitting on the computer playing chess. There were two secretaries that were sitting nearby. One of them said to the other "I like it. The semester is over, we got to play chess". I liked that she referred to me as "we" so she at least regarded me as human, in contrast to most people.
c) When I was 22, I was studying in my office till very late at night and, on my way home, I would go to the grocery store to buy some food so that I can eat it before I go to bed. A cashier kept trying to talk to me. I would give her short answers in order to end the conversation since I wanted to go to bed. Yet she kept trying to talk multiple times. Then one of those days she said to her male coworker "I am in love with that guy". He asked "who?" She said "comes here, never talks". Then I was puzzled ever since as to whether she was referring to me or not.
d) Similarly, when I was 25, I was coming home past midnight and buying food at Jimmy Jones. A particular woman at Jimmy Jones kept trying to talk to me (and one of those times they even called her over because I came so she can talk) but again I was brushing her off. She was teasing me over making the same order. And then one day she said she is going off to graduate school in another state but she said she will remember my order.
e) When I was 24, I came to Hillel (I am Jewish by birth but I came to believe in Jesus as an adult -- and I am not telling about Jesus when I go to Hillel). So there were three girls that tried asking me some questions. But I realized I was getting late to my meeting with my thesis advisor so I was giving them short answers in order to get to my meeting. They didn't realize it, they probably thought I was shy. The last question they asked was "how does it feel like to be surrounded by girls". I don't even remember how I answered it.
f) When I was 24, I walked into a natural food store and asked for the supplements that would improve my social skills. Two women tried to both help me with suggestions trying to find something. Then, after I bought those supplements they suggested, one of them said "don't worry it will all work out". And then she said that if I ever feel lonely I should come there and they will talk to me. And then the two of them actually started to start a conversation with me, but I gave her short answers and left because I was getting late to the Bible studies
g) Speaking of the Bible studies, I remember one occasion when I came few minutes early and a couple of women tried to talk to me. But I dismissed them with short answers because I was about to listen to the bible studies.
Now, keeping in mind that those examples were probably the only ones in my life, it is not a lot. They were more exceptions rather than the rule. The rule is that the vast majority of people would never talk to me and would never even say hello to me. That was the case when I was young too. The difference between being young and being old is that, when I was young, 99,9% of people didn't talk to me but 0.1% tried to. But now that I am old, 100% of people don't talk to me. So, when I was young, I didn't really care about 0.1% since I was focused on the 99.9% But now that I am old, I see how this 0.1% could have made a big difference but, alas, its too late: I no longer have that 0.1% To give illustration that I am not simply reading into things, when I was 21 I was declined the participation in Birthright Israel Trip because I didn't get along socially at Hillel (I ended up going on a different Birthright Israel Trip at the age of 26 through a different state). There were a lot of other examples when people found me annoying, particularly when I was asking to help with my homework without engaging with them in other ways. But, prior to the age of 21, I wasn't taking it personally. Then at the age of 21 when I was declined participation in Birthright Israel trip I took it personally and, ever since then, I noticed how nobody talks to me and how much it hurts.
Now, why is it that 99.9% of people didn't talk to me when I was young? Because of my Asperger. But, as mentioned earlier, maybe big part of it is the simple stuff like not brushing my hair and having loud voice. Therefore, here are my two big regrets:
A. I regret that I didn't pay attention to brushing my hair and voice volume when my parents (among many others) were telling me to
B. I regret that I didn't reciprocate the little attention I did receive in the examples above
And this brings me to the main topic of this thread. So now I finally realized A and B, lets say I do make those two changes (to be honest, I haven't changed A, but what if I will?) Would it help me? No, because of my age. I can change A (I haven't so far, but I can), yet I don't have any opportunity with B. The only women that can possibly be interested in me are 40+, so most of them are divorced and Jesus said marrying divorced women is adultery and most women my age are divorced (and I do want to marry and have kids otherwise I wont feel fulfilled). But, apart from that, I also feel like I missed out on the best time of my life. I still would never know what its like to date a woman in her 20-s (yes I dated my three ex-s, but they were NOT like most women, which is the reason why they dated me to begin with).
Given the above, I would like to understand the logic of why older men are seen as creepy. First of all, let me present some arguments that I heard, along with my counter-arguments. And then I want to see if you can counter my counter-arguments.
1) They say that older men manipulate younger women. But the question is why are older men more likely to manipulate younger women? The answer is financially. Now, if that is the case, then this would logically imply that among the men that are the same age women would prefer the ones that are poor over the ones that are rich so that they can't manipulate them. But that is not what we see. Conversely, if this was the reason, then women would be fine dating older men that are poor (since poor men can't manipulate them) but thats not what we see either. More strikingly, if we take older men that are rich, then women can date them "despite" the fact that they are old "because" they are rich. This shows that correlation between age and wealth is not the reason. And, if not, then how exactly older men would manipulate them?
2) They say that older men that pursue younger women are shallow because they look at the age as the primary factor. But, by the same logic, younger women who avoid older men are likewise shallow since they also look at age as primary factor. Now, I realize that women aren't saying "hey I will date this random guy because he is young". Youth is a necessary factor but not sufficient: they also have other things in common with the specific young guy they choose to date. But then, by the same logic, maybe an older man who wants to date younger woman also sees other things in common with her? What we have in both cases is age being "an" important factor. So why is it, on one case the person is shallow and in the other case they aren't?
3) One way to answer Point 2 is that older men are at a different stage in life. But then what about my situation when I was between schools/postdocs up until last year and am still looking for job?
4) They say that older men are sexually perverted. But, biologically speaking, the sex hormones would be higher at a younger age. So why is it older men are more sexually perverted than younger ones?
5) They say women won't date older men because their friends and family won't approve. But that just leads to the question why wouldn't they approve? Which would take us right back to trying to answer 1-4.
And also here is a separate question. If you look at those examples from when I was young, not all of them were romantic. An example "f" probably wasn't. So lets say they aren't sexually attracted to older men: nobody can help sexual attraction. But why am I not encountering situations such as "f" now that I am old (keep in mind: I endountered "f" when I was 24)? I mean, straight women aren't attracted to other straight women. Yet they are clearly supportive of them. So why can't they be supportive of older men despite not being attracted to them? So what it seems like is that they don't see older men as human beings. So when I was 24 and they weren't attracted to me (in example f), I was still a human being, so they were still supportive of me. But now that I am 44, I am no longer a human being, so women avoid even talking to me much less saying anything supportive.
Now, don't get me wrong. I do want a romantic relationship and marriage. The reason I brought up friendship is that something is better than nothing. Contrary to popular stereotype, what I am looking in a romantic relationship is not sex but rather an emotional bond with a woman. And that aspect of it can be fulfilled in friendship too. Now, there are other aspects of romantic relationship that friendship won't fulfill. For example, it would help my self esteem to know that I am "the" person a woman chose rather than being just one of several. And also I would like to marry and have kids. But at least having some friends would be better than not having anything at all.
Besides, the fact that they don't even want to be friends with me suggests the reason why they might not be interested in other things either. Like could it be that the ROOT of the problem is the fact that they assume older men are not human, and then the logical consequences of that is that they can neither be friends with them not date them? And being religated to a subhuman status is a lot more painful than being deprived of dating or friendship.
Speaking of older men not being human, this brings me to the other topic. So, if you look at "4", there is that idea that older men are sexually perverted. Now, I agree, sexual perverts are not human. Because I don't understand what they are doing even from the selfish point of view. As mentioned a bit earlier, what I want from women is emotional connection. Logically speaking, sexual harassment won't bring emotional connection: exact opposite in fact. Thus, there is no selfish/logical reason I would ever want to sexually harass a woman. The fact that other men do that implies that they don't have a need for emotional connection. They only want sex. And that is something I would never understand. If I want to have a nice sensual experience, I can always go eat some nice food or something. I don't understnad why men would sacrifice their whole life (by risking going to jail for example) just for one-time sex that doesn't bring emotional fulfillment anyway. So the fact that they do it means they are subhuman since they don't have human needs such as emotional connection with a woman OR staying out of jail: they just want sex. The only problem is that I am not one of them so why do women assume that I am?
And then if we look at the guys that don't do the criminal stuff, then there is the other stuff that doesn't make sense. I read on the internet that there is a tendency for the guys to have sex and then dump a woman. That makes no sense either. Again, I want emotional connection with a woman, not sex. So why dump her? And since sex is supposed to bring people closer, it makes no sense why sex would trigger a guy to dump the girl (the exact opposite to what sex is designed to do)?
By the way, as a Christian, I don't believe in sex before marriage. But I was purposely looking at it from secular viewpoint because I am trying to understand the logic of it.
So could it be something along the following lines. "Some" men are subhuman. Women don't know who those "some men" are: nobody is a mind reader. But, being emotionally wired, they assume that those men have to be unattractive ones. Which of course is not true, but its a human nature to lump all the unpleasant things together. And so they assume unattractive men are the ones that are "only after sex", "want to use/dump them" (even though logically speaking sexual attractiveness should not be correlated to this). And, since older men are less attractive, thats why they blame older men on this.
Still though it is not totally it either. I mean, fat men are not attractive either. Yet, between younger guy who is fat and older guy of normal weight, it is the older guy of normal weight that has to bear that stereotype.
And then the other thing I was mentioning that I didn't get to yet is the whole thing about the way I dress. So here is a question: why do people judge me based on whether or not I remembered to brush my hair? Do they assume there is a genetic correlation between personality and hair stype? As in, the genes that would make hair go unruly are the same genes that would make a person to have a bad character? But if thats what they assume, then why don't they think that THEY are bad people since their hair is unruly when they just got out of bed before they brushed it? Or are they thinking they ARE bad people but they are "Cheating" by brushing their own hair, and they don't realize that everyone else "Cheats" the same way, kind of like in the tale of naked emperor?
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