Old topic, new thought

[Davidnic]

Also there are numerous inscriptions from that time that show that the usage of firstborn is not used in the modern western way. When a funeral inscription says: "Died in the birth of her firstborn son." And there are inscriptions that say that (check funeral inscriptions from Egypt and elsewhere, but Egypt is the easiest to find) ...it is obvious that they are not using it (in the cases where they even use the word) in the same way we are.

If we are going to rely mainly on Scripture then we need to look at it without a 1500-2007 Western mindset as far as cultural atmosphere and word usage. In these cases we need to put aside out cultural bias in the reading and look at how such terms (firstborn, brethren and others) were and are viewed in an Eastern mindset both in overall culture and time period.


My last comment that follows here is a bit off topic but an observation. A connection with the East (the birthplace of Christianity and Scripture) is something 90% of all Christians, no matter what denomination, could draw wonderful insights from. And in those areas many Christians suffer. So no matter what we disagree on here, as Holy week starts let us offer a prayer together for all the Christians in those areas. This does not need to become a prayer thread away from the topic, but in our hearts let is join in this.

 

[IamAdopted]

Also there are numerous inscriptions from that time that show that the usage of firstborn is not used in the modern western way. When a funeral inscription says: "Died in the birth of her firstborn son." And there are inscriptions that say that (check funeral inscriptions from Egypt and elsewhere, but Egypt is the easiest to find) ...it is obvious that they are not using it (in the cases where they even use the word) in the same way we are.

If we are going to rely mainly on Scripture then we need to look at it without a 1500-2007 Western mindset as far as cultural atmosphere and word usage. In these cases we need to put aside out cultural bias in the reading and look at how such terms (firstborn, brethren and others) were and are viewed in an Eastern mindset both in overall culture and time period.


My last comment that follows here is a bit off topic but an observation. A connection with the East (the birthplace of Christianity and Scripture) is something 90% of all Christians, no matter what denomination, could draw wonderful insights from. And in those areas many Christians suffer. So no matter what we disagree on here, as Holy week starts let us offer a prayer together for all the Christians in those areas. This does not need to become a prayer thread away from the topic, but in our hearts let is join in this.

If we take what is written in the Original greek we see that Mary had children. Because the word used for describing Jesus brothers in the Old greek meant from the same womb. You can disagree if you like but I will chose Gods word over mans observation any day. Mary having other children in no way dimishes the fact that Christ came to save sinners. For this was why He came.

 

[prodromos]

If we take what is written in the Original greek we see that Mary had children. Because the word used for describing Jesus brothers in the Old greek meant from the same womb.

You are ignoring what was posted earlier about Jacobs sons. The twelve of them came from four different wombs yet in the Greek translation of the Old Testament the same word for "brother" is used as that which you refer to above, meaning "from the same womb". Since they are clearly not from the same womb it follows that the term "brother" does not have to mean strictly what its etymology would suggest.

John

 

[repentant]

If we take what is written in the Original greek we see that Mary had children. Because the word used for describing Jesus brothers in the Old greek meant from the same womb. You can disagree if you like but I will chose Gods word over mans observation any day. Mary having other children in no way dimishes the fact that Christ came to save sinners. For this was why He came.

Ahh no..


Here is another example of "brother" being used, and it does not mean blood brother...

Matthew 28

Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

What brother's was He reffering to?

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

So here, Jesus is telling Mary and Mary to tell His brother's to meet Him in Galilee...and we see that the brother's He was reffering to are the Apostles, all 11 of them..

The Greek word used in verse 10, is adelphoi, the plural word of brother...

This is the same word in Greek that is used in this verse...

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

So obviously, once again, adelphos, adelphoi or brother does not mean blood relationship...

 

[IamAdopted]

You are ignoring what was posted earlier about Jacobs sons. The twelve of them came from four different wombs yet in the Greek translation of the Old Testament the same word for "brother" is used as that which you refer to above, meaning "from the same womb". Since they are clearly not from the same womb it follows that the term "brother" does not have to mean strictly what its etymology would suggest.

John

Yes and when describing them in the OT It is shown that there were different wombs. In Jesus brothers there is not distinction. This is not shown to us. What is shown to us is the word that was used to describe Jesus brothers. Meaning from the same womb. So if God was so careful to show us that with those you speak of were from different wombs He would have been just as careful with the latter. But since He was not the bible leads us to believe that they are from the same mother. God does this through out the bible. Same with Abrahams sons. God is careful to show us who was born from who.

 

[IamAdopted]

Ahh no..


Here is another example of "brother" being used, and it does not mean blood brother...

Matthew 28

Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

What brother's was He reffering to?

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

So here, Jesus is telling Mary and Mary to tell His brother's to meet Him in Galilee...and we see that the brother's He was reffering to are the Apostles, all 11 of them..

The Greek word used in verse 10, is adelphoi, the plural word of brother...

This is the same word in Greek that is used in this verse...

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

So obviously, once again, adelphos, adelphoi or brother does not mean blood relationship...

In the greek a different word is used here to show us whom He was Speaking about. So there wouldn't be that confusion.

 

[prodromos]

In the greek a different word is used here to show us whom He was Speaking about. So there wouldn't be that confusion.

It is the same word being used.

 

[Davidnic]

In the greek a different word is used here to show us whom He was Speaking about. So there wouldn't be that confusion.

What word would that be then? Becuase it is Adelphoi, Adelphos in both those verses that I have seen.

 

[prodromos]

Yes and when describing them in the OT It is shown that there were different wombs. In Jesus brothers there is not distinction. This is not shown to us. What is shown to us is the word that was used to describe Jesus brothers. Meaning from the same womb. So if God was so careful to show us that with those you speak of were from different wombs He would have been just as careful with the latter.

Nonsense. In any case, in the old covenant you had to be born under it, so ancestry was important. In the new covenant anyone can be grafted onto the vine.There is also a great difference in time between when the events occurred and when they were written down. Moses recorded the Books of the Law many generations after the people described in them had died. Many of the people mentioned in the Gospels were still alive when the Gospels were written including the brothers and sisters of Christ. It is important to note that only John's Gospel mentions the raising of Lazarus. Why? Because when the other Gospels were written, Lazarus was still alive and a living witness to what had happened to him. It was not necessary for them to record the event because he was still around.

John

 

[repentant]

In the greek a different word is used here to show us whom He was Speaking about. So there wouldn't be that confusion.

You are so hell bent on proving your point, that now you progressed to blatantly making stuff up. Do you understand, I have a Koine Greek Bible? I speak Greek? The same word is used in both verses I posted. The verse speaking of His brother's and sister's, and the verse where Jesus calls the Apostles His brother's...adelphoi

Stop argueing with people who read, know, understand, and most importantly HAVE READ the verses in question...

 

[IamAdopted]

You are so hell bent on proving your point, that now you progressed to blatantly making stuff up. Do you understand, I have a Koine Greek Bible? I speak Greek? The same word is used in both verses I posted. The verse speaking of His brother's and sister's, and the verse where Jesus calls the Apostles His brother's...adelphoi

Stop argueing with people who read, know, understand, and most importantly HAVE READ the verses in question...

Doesn't matter repentant. I can also read my greek bible. I can also see the word spoken in the original greek.

 

[repentant]

I find it hard to believe you have a Greek Bible, let alone can read it, since you are so obviously wrong about what you are saying...

 

[IamAdopted]

In the greek a different word is used here to show us whom He was Speaking about. So there wouldn't be that confusion.

it was the angel that Spoke in Matthew 28. The angel told them to go tell His disciples.

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

 

[IamAdopted]

I find it hard to believe you have a Greek Bible, let alone can read it, since you are so obviously wrong about what you are saying...

Well you can find it hard to believe but then you are not required to believe me.

 

[repentant]

it was the angel that Spoke in Matthew 28. The angel told them to go tell His disciples.

Rad a little further and you will see how on the way to Matthews, they run into Jesus, and Jesus tells them to go tell His brothers...adelphoi...same word used in the verse about Jesus' brother's and sister's..

5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."


47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

same word is used in the Greek for brother's...adelphoi

 

[repentant]

Well you can find it hard to believe but then you are not required to believe me.

Well I have the Bible opened in front of me, and read it 500 times, I can't believe you..

 

[IamAdopted]

Well I have the Bible opened in front of me, and read it 500 times, I can't believe you..

Okay I went and looked up the scripture you pointed out. Yes they do use the word adelphos. I didn't read far enough on the scripture. My apologies.

ad-el-[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]' from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote brother.

 

[repentant]

Okay I went and looked up the scripture you pointed out. Yes they do use the word adelphos. I didn't read far enough on the scripture. My apologies.

ad-el-[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]' from 1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote brother.

Do you see the or figuratively part? We know the Disciples were not Jesus' brother's from the same womb..

And anyway, last time I checked womb was mitra or koilias and a delphoi was a dolphin..

 

[IamAdopted]

Do you see the or figuratively part? We know the Disciples were not Jesus' brother's from the same womb..

And anyway, last time I checked womb was mitra or koilias and a delphoi was a dolphin..

Need to look up the word I said not delphoi. This is where we much differ.

 

[repentant]

Need to look up the word I said not delphoi. This is where we much differ.

I have never heard of the word, delphu. I also looked up a few verses where the word "womb" is used, and in all instances I found either the word mitra or koilias...

The only word i know of that even sounds like or resembles delphu, is delphoi, which means dolphin..

I am not saying delphu does not exist, only I have not ever heard of it, nor can I find it in any dictionary anywhere, and I have looked..also even if it does mean "womb", and adelphos pertains to "of the same womb", obviously is does not apply all the time anyway, as I have said, Jesus called the Disciples adelphoi...also, any word thats has to do with a type of brotherhood, like a fraternity, all begin with the word adelph-..