Old Testament vs. Predestination

[Dale]

From the Chapter on Predestination in John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion:
“Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is fore-ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others.”

“In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of the Scripture, we assert, that by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined, both whom He would admit to salvation, and whom He would condemn to destruction. We affirm that this counsel, as far as concerns the elect, is founded on His gratuitous mercy, totally irrespective of human merit; but that [B]to those whom He devotes to condemnation, the gate of life is closed by a just and irreprehensible, but incomprehensible, judgment.[B]”

“As God seals His elect by vocation and justification, so by excluding the reprobate from the knowledge of His name and the sanctification of His Spirit, He affords an indication of the judgment that awaits them.”

I’ve had many conversations with Calvinists. They tell me that no mortal can seek God or know anything about God until God “calls” them as one of the Elect. No one becomes a Christian, God makes them one.

What does the Bible say about this? In this thread I will look at a part of the Bible that Calvinists know very little about, the Old Testament. The God of the Old Testament is commonly thought of as harsh, a God of authority, power, might and sovereignty. Does this sound like a Calvinist would be right at home? Maybe not . . .

 

[Dale]

The Psalms

“Who may ascend the hill of he Lord? Who may stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false. He will receive blessing from the Lord and vindication from God his savior. Such is the generation of those who seek him, who seek your face, O God of Jacob.”
--Psalms 24:3-6 NIV
Contrary to the Predestinationists, Psalms says that mortals do seek to know God.

“The Lord confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.”
--Psalms 25:14
In Psalms, the believer stands in awe of the Lord God and as a result the Lord “confides,” revealing his covenant.

“My heart says of you, ‘Seek his face!’ Your face, Lord, I will seek.”
--Psalms 27:8
Psalms places the initiative with the worshipped.

“Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, ‘I will confess my transgressions to the Lord--and you forgave the guilt of my sin.’”
--Psalms 32:5

“I waited patiently for the Lord; he turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand. He put a new song in my mouth, hymn of praise to our God.”
--Psalms 40:1-3
The patience and cries of the worshiper precede action by the Lord God.

“Moses and Aaron were among his priests, Samuel was among those who called on his name; they called on the Lord and he answered them.”
--Psalms 99:6
They called before God answered.

“But as for me, it is good to be near God. I have made the Sovereign Lord my refuge; I will tell of all your deeds.”
--Psalms 73:28
It is the believer who has chosen God as a refuge.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.”
--Psalms 111:10
Wisdom comes from the believer’s decision to stand in awe of God

“I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation.”
--Psalms 118:21

“I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.”
--Psalms 119:45
The Predestinationists deny the spiritual freedom that Psalms talks about here. According to the Predestinationists mortals cannot really seek out the precepts of God until God calls them, and He may not do so.

“Save me, for I am yours; I have sought out your precepts.”
--Psalms 119:94
Psalms repeats the point about the believer seeking God’s precepts.

“You reject all who stray from your decrees, for their deceitfulness is in vain.”
--Psalms 119:118
This is the other side of the coin, free will works both ways, and those who stray are judged.

“Salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.”
--Psalms 119:155
Psalms does not divide mankind into Elect and non-Elect but into those who seek to understand God’s precepts or decrees and those who do not.

“But I have stilled and quieted my soul; like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child is my soul within me.”
--Psalms 131:2
According to Psalms, it is the believer who must make the decision to still and quiet the soul. Stillness and quiet in a mortal’s soul is not the result of a Divine decree, at least not until the mortal asks for God’s help.

“The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.”
--Psalms 145:9
Then there are no non-Elect who are beyond God’s compassion.

“The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.”
--Psalms 145:18
According to the Predestinationists, those who are not members of the Elect cannot call on the Christian God, or they will not be heard.

 

[KSA]

I think that Calvin went too far when he said that some are predestined to be reprobate. But it is true that men cannot be saved without God's grace, because all people out of free will chose the paths of unrighteousness. And God predestinates some to receive this grace. Kinda hard to explain, but that is what the Word says.

 

[Dale]

KSA in post #3:
" . . . all people out of free will chose the paths of unrighteousness."

I don't know how you could reach that conclusion.

 

[Dale]

Another tidbit from the Psalms:

"I sought the Lord, and he answered me;
he delivered me from all my fears."
--Psalms 34:4

 

[Dale]

Isaiah


“The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.”
--Isaiah 19:22
God challenges mortals using natural events but they must make the decision to “turn to the Lord” before God responds with healing.

“Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the Lord is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him.”
--Isaiah 30:18
A God who “longs to be gracious” would not create some souls as non-Elect.

“The poor and needy search for water but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the Lord will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs.”
--Isaiah 41:17-18
Water is a powerful spiritual symbol. God will not forsake those who search for spiritual meaning.

“I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob’s descendants, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I, the Lord, speak the truth; I declare what is right.”
--Isaiah 45:19
God’s promises are not a secret from the non-Elect, for there is no such group.

“Who among you fears the Lord and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God.”
--Isaiah 50:10
The believer’s trust in God, or reliance on God, comes before God’s response.

“[The Lord says,] Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek the Lord; Look to the rock from which you were cut and to the quarry from which you were hewn.”
--Isaiah 51:1
According to the Predestinationists, there are no mortals who “pursue righteousness” or “seek the Lord,” until God calls them. Referring to people as rock hewn from God’s quarry does not separate us from God but invites us to return home.

“Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.”
--Isaiah 55:7
The believer turns to the Lord before God dispenses pardon.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I think that Calvin went too far when he said that some are predestined to be reprobate. But it is true that men cannot be saved without God's grace, because all people out of free will chose the paths of unrighteousness. And God predestinates some to receive this grace. Kinda hard to explain, but that is what the Word says.

Calvin, as I understand, never taught double-election. So he didn't really go too far, since he never went there at all.

Dale, though I usually don't like to dismiss lengthy arguments with a few words, all your comments on why these verses say predestination is wrong grossly mischaracterize what Calvinism really is. We do not share your philosophical underpinnings, and when you move from what Calvinism says to what Calvinism must imply when we look at the universe through your preconceptions, you only give us more reason to reject your preconceptions, not to reject Calvinism.

 

[Dale]

Epiphoskei:
"Dale, though I usually don't like to dismiss lengthy arguments with a few words, all your comments on why these verses say predestination is wrong grossly mischaracterize what Calvinism really is."

Epiphoskei,

Hello.

I opened by quoting the chapter on Predestination in John Calvin's Institutes of Christian Religion. I highlighted the places where Calvin says what you deny that he said. Where do you get your information on Calvinism?

Less than twenty-four hours ago a Calvinist told me that no one calls on God until God calls them to be a believer. I do not find this scenario in the Bible, and that is what I am pointing out in this thread.

 

[Epiphoskei]

You have quoted it right, however you still misunderstand it. This Calvinist who recently explained Calvinism to you was also probably doing it more or less right, but you are still misunderstanding that. This is evidenced by all your comments on the scriptures you quoted. We do not deny the genuine will of a human being directing his steps, we only teach upon whom his will is dependant.

You quote a number of verses discussing the human doing things you say Calvinists do not believe humans can do. You quoted a verse and said it indicated that men seek God. Well, Calvinists state that men do seek God. Elect men. In accordance with their dependant will. These verses do not discount calvinism until you can find one that reads "I have sought the Lord due to some intrinsic unfallen nature in me. I have called him to my aid through somthing I produced autonomously. It is I who have moved him; He does not move me." You're not going to find it either...

 

[Unworthy1One]

Dale,

Thank you so much for those wonderful verses from the Old Testament. However, I must admit that I do not see how they contradict what most Calvinists believe. Calvinists would not argue that we should seek the Lord, fear the Lord, have a heart for the Lord, confess our sins, wait for Lord, walk in the Lord’s way or follow the Lord’s commands. You posted many great verses, so I will not address each. However…

The issue is not if we should do these things, but the issue is who actually will do these things. All are supposed to, but not all will (unless of course all people are justified, which the Bible clearly does not teach). So how is it, or what is it, that allows those who will do these things actually choose to do them? What makes a man, dead in their sin, seek the Lord? Perhaps this is what the Calvinist ultimately seeks to understand.

I think it is important to remember who actually wrote these things. These wonderful truths were not written by someone who rejected the Lord. Quite the contrary, there were written by people specifically chosen by the Lord, and in some cases directed to a people chosen by the Lord.

The doctrine of election or predestination was not made up by the Reformers. These concepts are evident throughout Scripture. There should be no debate that some form of election or predestination is present in the Bible. Perhaps the question is the extent, method and reason for the election or predestination. Also remember that Calvin, while possessing a great mind and having the saving knowledge of the Chirst, was still just a man, fallen and sinful. While his writings are insightful, it would be dangerous to assume they are infallible or embraced as such by those who believe in the Lord.

To God be the glory.

 

[Dale]

Epiphoskei:
"Well, Calvinists state that men do seek God. Elect men."

The book of the Bible that I have quoted do not make this distinction.

From an earlier post:
“I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.”
--Psalms 119:45
The Predestinationists deny the spiritual freedom that Psalms talks about here. According to the Predestinationists mortals cannot really seek out the precepts of God until God calls them, and He may not do so.

We are not told that the Psalmist was called by God as Elect before the Psalmist "sought" the precepts of God. To believe that you must insert your own views into the text.

The Psalmist speaks of spiritual freedom. Calvinists run down freedom. In the words of Calvin's associate and successor, Beza, spiritual freedom only allows people to make mistakes.

"These verses do not discount calvinism until you can find one that reads 'I have sought the Lord due to some intrinsic unfallen nature in me.'"

You make far more out of fallen and unfallen than there is in the Bible.

 

[Dale]

Unworthy1One:
"What makes a man, dead in their sin, seek the Lord? Perhaps this is what the Calvinist ultimately seeks to understand."

The Calvinist claim that non-Christians do not seek God is contrary to experience. I have known quite a few non-Christians who were very interested in finding out whether there is a God and what His plan is.

As far as I can tell, if Calvinism were true there would be no false religion. There would be those with no religion and no thought of it. There would also be those who are Elect, who would always have correct theology. There is no room in Calvinism for all the false religions loose in the world.

 

[Unworthy1One]

“I have known quite a few non-Christians who were very interested in finding out whether there is a God and what His plan is.”

As an aside, I think it is funny that we all use terms like seeking or looking for the Lord as if God is hiding, which if I recall correctly was not how it happened in Genesis.

Anyway, which God are they trying to find? The true God, or a god after their own creation (i.e., one that suites their needs?). Besides, perhaps your non-Christian associates that are very interested in finding out whether there is a God have received His gift of grace and faith, and are truly called. The seeking you refer to just might be the process they go through to answer the inward call, and you have the wonderful opportunity to be involved in God’s plan! I know it took me quite a while to answer!

“As far as I can tell, if Calvinism were true there would be no false religion.”

I do not totally agree with this statement, but I am by no means a representative of Calvinism, nor do I consider myself a month piece for those collectively believing in Calvinism. Paul tells us about those that exchanged the truth of God (revealed by nature to all, both elect and reprobate), for a lie and they served the creature instead of the Creator. I think many non-elect do seek a god, including those in what may be termed false religions; however I believe Paul tells us the god they seek is not the God as revealed in the Bible. They do seek a god as revealed in other literature, or a god they can mold into how they want god to be.

Of course, your statement may be true, but I do not see anything in the writings of confessed Calvinists to support it. I think that quite to opposite is true as many Calvinist would say a false understanding of God’s grace and mercy may (but not necessary) lead to a false religion where works are required, were multiple gods are required, were man’s choice trumps God’s sovereignty, etc.

Regardless, if someone rejects the true God, by default do they not follow a false religion? Even if they say they do not follow any god, do they not place themselves in the position of god, thereby subscribing to a false religion? Even if some might argue they do not consider themselves a god, the fact they believe in no god is technically a religion of itself and therefore false. Since all Calvinist will admit to following the true God, I do not see how your statement stands.

I have enjoyed conversing with you! Have a blessed weekend and go Chicago Bears!!!!

To God be the glory.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Epiphoskei:
"Well, Calvinists state that men do seek God. Elect men."

The book of the Bible that I have quoted do not make this distinction.

From an earlier post:
“I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.”
--Psalms 119:45
The Predestinationists deny the spiritual freedom that Psalms talks about here. According to the Predestinationists mortals cannot really seek out the precepts of God until God calls them, and He may not do so.

The spiritual freedom here comes about as a result of seeking the precepts, not as a preexisting condition. Does it not say, "I will walk about in freedom, for ..."? And where did the seeking come from? This verse doesn't say. That doesn't make this verse speak against predestination, that only makes this verse silent. Arguments from silence are of no value, and thus the silence of this verse is irrelevant to the debate. What you need to prove your point is somthing that denies the role of God, not somthing that affirms the role of man, since Calvinism by no means states that man has no part in salvation, merely that his part is not autonomously instigated. It is by this doctrine of non-contradiction that we affirm all the verses in the scripture, including the ones wherein God works in us the will and the works. It is insufficient to affirm man and assume the silence means nothing else as well; you must find a verse that activly denies God.

We are not told that the Psalmist was called by God as Elect before the Psalmist "sought" the precepts of God. To believe that you must insert your own views into the text.

Exactly. And you must insert your views into the text to say that he sought the precepts of God in and of himself. The text is silent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

"These verses do not discount calvinism until you can find one that reads 'I have sought the Lord due to some intrinsic unfallen nature in me.'"

You make far more out of fallen and unfallen than there is in the Bible.

Romans would disagree with you.

 

[Dale]

Epiphoskei in post #14:
<< And where did the seeking come from? This verse doesn't say. That doesn't make this verse speak against predestination, that only makes this verse silent. Arguments from silence are of no value, and thus the silence of this verse is irrelevant to the debate. What you need to prove your point is somthing that denies the role of God, not somthing that affirms the role of man, since Calvinism by no means states that man has no part in salvation, merely that his part is not autonomously instigated. It is by this doctrine of non-contradiction that we affirm all the verses in the scripture, including the ones wherein God works in us the will and the works. It is insufficient to affirm man and assume the silence means nothing else as well; you must find a verse that activly denies God. >>

The problem is that you are reading your views on a Doctrine of Election in the Psalms and other parts of the Old Testament. Yet this notion of Elect and non-Elect is simply not found. The Jews are chosen as a people, but most of the people that David refers to as enemies are fellow Jews.

Since Calvinism and Predestination did not exist in Old Testament times, no Old Testament author would pause to refute it or dismiss it.

There certainly is no doubt that Judaism places great stress on deeds, on actions, rather than abstract beliefs. That is one of the points separating Jews and Christians even today. It is hardly surprising that the Psalms place great weight on deeds, not some invisible theological "call."

In his chapter on Predestination, Calvin talks about Abraham being called to go to Canaan. This is apparently supposed to back up Calvin's notion of God calling people to be believers but it just doesn't fit. The Bible doesn't tell us how Abraham became a believer in the one true God or how he disentangled himself from paganism, or if his father had already done so. Apparently Abraham was already a firm believer in God when the Lord told him to go to Canaan. What God said to Abraham about going to Canaan has nothing to do with the process of becoming a believer.

 

[Epiphoskei]

You are the one asserting that the OT is incompatable with predestination. If you are now saying that the scriptures which you have quoted are silent on the matter (as I have been telling you from the beginning), you are proving my point.

But as for Abraham, the specific acts of faith which God reconed as righteousness are mentioned in the scripture, and they seem to have happened post-call. Once again, arguments from silence make that a weakly defendable interpretation, but you seem to be reading conclusive evidence for your position into the ambiguity of scriptures not adressing the point at all.

 

[KSA]

KSA in post #3:
" . . . all people out of free will chose the paths of unrighteousness."

I don't know how you could reach that conclusion.

See Romans, chapter 3:

10. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

 

[KSA]

Calvin, as I understand, never taught double-election. So he didn't really go too far, since he never went there at all.

Thanks for clarification! I heard that hyper-calvinism teaches double-election, but was not sure if Calvin himself taught it. Dale's quote seemed to indicate that he did.

 

[marvmax]

See Romans, chapter 3:

10. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

This argument would be even stronger if you referred to what Paul was referring to, since part of Dale's argument is that Calvinists seem to ignore the OT, Paul certainly didn't.

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (Psalms 14)
or
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. (Psalms 53)

Vss 11-12 seem to be Paul's exposition.

While I agree with Dale on this topic, I do wonder about what Paul said especially in Romans 13.

 

[KSA]

I believe there is no contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament. If the New Testament teaches predestination (and it certainly does), then it must be true.

We should also realize that the divine revelation is progressive throughout the Bible. Abel saw more than Adam. David saw more than Abraham. And Daniel saw more than David. And definitely the Apostles saw much more than the Old Testament prophets.