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Old Testament Law, Meet Modern Society

Ken Rank

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The law of Moses was God's covenant with the nation of Israel. It was never intended to be a universal law for mankind.
I clicked "like" but I want to point out that Israel was to take the law to the nations. This didn't happen and it does appear that it will happen during the Millennial Kingdom. That is why, as Tree of Life pointed out... that Zechariah (and another prophet or two) state that even the nations, those who are not perfected it seems, will come and keep the Feasts like Sukkot (tabernacles) and if they don't, God will withhold rain from them. :) So I think it was meant for all... but in God's timing and we have never reach that time.
 
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Daniel9v9

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The Law can be divided into three: Ceremonial (Israel before God), judicial/forensic (Israel as a community) and moral (spiritual). Ceremonial and judicial/forensic laws have been fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ and are no longer needed. That's why we say we're no longer under the law, but grace. That's why we don't stone people or offer animal sacrifices etc.

The moral Law, however, is still in effect and can be divided into three:
1. Universal laws that governs, which is applied to both Christians and non-believers. Basically laws that keeps order.
2. Exposure of our sin, making us aware of our trespasses before God and the need for Jesus Christ as our Lord and redeemer.
3. A guide for Christians in practicing good works and producing good fruit in accordance with the Holy Spirit.

So when Christ says "love one another", we are doing this. Love is our law. :)

James 1:27 is good!
 
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jimmyjimmy

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May a modern civil magistrate govern according to Old Testament Law? Please explain your answer.

He may draw wisdom from it, but not impose laws which were intended for a certain group of people only.

Now, let me get back to my BLT. . .
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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May a modern civil magistrate govern according to Old Testament Law? Please explain your answer.
No, not with our culture. amercians typically dont understand the idea of moderation, and we would take the laws to the extreme. modern day secular pharisees.
 
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Sylvester

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We no longer observe laws like sacrifices and things related to that since Jesus has come.

Other than that there were laws related society in general. Like murder being illegal. Obviously we do follow some aspects of them but not exactly. That's because those laws weren't perfect according to Jesus himself. Divorce law is the one I have in mind. Matthew 19:8. The Israelites weren't in a mental state to fully follow God's will. So God did the practical thing and put up laws with those realities in mind. No point in trying to replicate the same laws in our society.
 
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owl-inc

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Indeed... but that is during the Millennial Kingdom when the King (Yeshua/Jesus) reigns from the throne of David. Totally different culture after the tribulation ends. :)

I noticed You know much. However, I'm a little nervous about the "Yeshus" thing. I know there's a big history behind it. But still a little leaving of the Pharisees red flag goes up, in my mind, when folks are preoccupied with such gnat issues as exact name pronunciations.
 
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Tree of Life

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Indeed... but that is during the Millennial Kingdom when the King (Yeshua/Jesus) reigns from the throne of David. Totally different culture after the tribulation ends. :)

Haven't you heard? We're living in the Millennial Kingdom right now!
 
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Ken Rank

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Haven't you heard? We're living in the Millennial Kingdom right now!
If true, I want my money back. I was looking forward to a time of piece and maybe a king in place. ;)
 
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dqhall

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May a modern civil magistrate govern according to Old Testament Law? Please explain your answer.

Exodus 21:24 required, "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,"

Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind."

Matthew 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
 
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Ken Rank

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I noticed You know much. However, I'm a little nervous about the "Yeshus" thing. I know there's a big history behind it. But still a little leaving of the Pharisees red flag goes up, in my mind, when folks are preoccupied with such gnat issues as exact name pronunciations.
"Yeshua" is simply the name Jesus would have heard with his own ears. It has nothing to do with Pharisees, for me it is just a respect thing. The name Jesus us an acceptable transliteration from the Latin, which transliterated the Greek, which transliterated Yeshua. :) So I don't care what you call him or how you pronounce it... he seeks a pure heart not great linguistic skills.

Those that insist on a certain pronunciation, avoid... they are a cancer to the faith.
 
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Colter

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May a modern civil magistrate govern according to Old Testament Law? Please explain your answer.
We've grown out of the primitive laws of the old Testiment in the modern world. But ISIS still follows that kind of backward thinking and they have similar concepts of God.
 
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AlexDTX

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May a modern civil magistrate govern according to Old Testament Law? Please explain your answer.

This is a difficult question to answer. First, the Mosaic Law was never meant for Gentiles, it was only given to Israel. But Israel misunderstood the purpose of the OT Law. It never brought righteousness, only showed sins. And in Israeli history it was disregarded much of the time. Read Chronicles and Kings in the Bible.

That being said, second, the law is made for the lawless. All societies have lawless people, so it has a place to show sin to those lawless people.

However, third, Christ redeemed us from the law, so the American society and many European societies are mixtures of the lawless and redeemed. Prisons in the USA, as I understand the history, were created by churches (Presbyterian, I think), not for permanent detainment but as means of rehabilitation through bringing the Gospel to the lawless. This is no longer the case. But it was understood that the law could never change the lawless, only the Gospel has the transforming power to change hearts. Chuck Colson is an example of prisons performing their original task.

God is not willing that any should perish and an application of the Mosaic law on a society would do just that. Capital punishment was applied to many things we would consider harmless today. But if a lawless person reaches the point of total degeneracy where redemption is no longer possible, then capital punishment would benefit society. But who can make such a decision? Only God knows. If Calvinists were in charge, then everyone is totally depraved and most are destined for Hell anyway, so they might use genocide indiscriminately. I jest. But the joke makes my point.

Finally, many American laws have root in Old Testament law already. I live in Texas. About 10 years ago, the law that made homosexuality in Texas illegal was overturned by the Supreme Court. That was an OT law on the books. However, as far as I know, capital punishment was not the penalty for being homosexual, merely imprisonment. It was a law that was not being enforced in Texas at all.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Are you a demon? I mean you don't even hide your evil name of "Dragon".
I suppose it's time for an exorcism.
Begone with you dragon demon of satan.
Be gone in the name of Jesus Christ and God Our Father.
{Note:This usually works with lower level demons. However,stronger ones only flee with prayer and fasting.}

Also:
James 4:7 "Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall exalt you."


... Are you kidding me?

For one thing, my name actually comes from TV Tropes—specifically, the "Crystal Dragon Jesus" trope, which is a trope that refers to a religion in a fiction work that obviously has elements of Christianity. Crystal Dragon Jesus - TV Tropes I was at a loss as to what my username could be here, so I browsed through TV Tropes, found that trope, thought it sounded cool and fitting, so I went with it. Maybe I should put that in my signature.

Second, dragons have existed in many cultures with some being peaceful, and Satan was only seen as a dragon in Revelation, which was written centuries after Genesis where there was no indication in the actual text that the serpent was Satan.

Third, you quote James 4:7, which is a nice verse, I'll give you that. There are plenty of nice verses in the Bible, but most of them are from the New Testament. What about points like Numbers 31:15-35? In that, Moses commands his people to kill everyone except the women who had never slept with a man, and the women are described as being "spoils" in the same way the objects and animals were. Now do those sound like the words of an all-loving all-powerful God or a patriarchal society who saw women as inferior and virgins as nothing more than prizes? Definitely the latter.

And that's just one example. I could give many others. So often people try to quote all the good Bible verses and completely ignore all the bad ones, or are unaware of them. Your knee-jerk reaction of branding me a demon suggests that you either don't know about those kind of verses, or don't care and say the entire Bible has to be the Word of God anyway because... well, because it says it is. And you're possibly afraid to ask questions, hence your knee-jerk reaction and anyone who dares to express that any part of the Bible isn't God's word. But any text could theoretically claim that and that wouldn't make it true.

Both in the Old and New Testament times, there were books that were going around that could have made it into the Bible but didn't. How are we to know if every price of supposedly "God-breathed" Scripture is legitimate, or that some valid ones weren't lost? The decision of which books were in the Bible didn't come about right away, it took centuries to do. Not weeks, not months, not years, centuries.

If you actually look into the text of the Old Testament, you'd see it is much more violent and barbaric than it would be if God really had it as his word. The text itself shows that it's much more likely it was written by a violent patriarchal society that had skewed morals and expressed its power by destroying its enemies and claiming it was God's command.

Instantly branding someone a demon for daring to question things doesn't show courage on your part, it shows fear.
 
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Vicomte13

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May a modern civil magistrate govern according to Old Testament Law? Please explain your answer.

It depends on where you are talking about.

In the Americas or Western Europe, no.

There are several reasons why not. I will begin with the practical and political, and then move to the spiritual.

Magistrates are judicial officials granted authority by governments. The governments of the Americas and Western Europe are civil republics or constitutional monarchies. Even the most oppressive government in the region - Cuba - is a republic whose government was determined by a popular revolution.

America's and France's and Britain's governments were established by popular revolutions (the English eventually restored their monarchy but never restored its power). These are popular republics (in everything but name for the British), and the people of these countries - which are the dominant source of modern Western civilization - do not have any desire to live under theocracy. There is no mechanism by which a "magistrate" could arise with the authority to govern according to Old Testament Law. Magistrates in Western democracies are chosen by the people directly or by other public officials to fulfill a specific, limited function, with their authority exclusively derived from the civil law by which their office is instituted. They have no personal or individual authority to step outside of their job description and claim power to command the armies, declare war on Poland, order the tides back...or start enforcing some DIFFERENT law. The Old Testament Law is a DIFFERENT law from the law under which the magistrate is appointed. He has no authority to enforce any other law other than the one under which his entire authority itself derives.

Should an American, French or British (or any of the other little countries in their Western orbit) try to do so, he would not actually be enforcing Old Testament Law, because nobody would obey him. He would, rather, be declared to have gone ultra vires (beyond his powers) and be removed from the bench.

It is theologically wrong to quote Saint Paul as though he has the same authority as Jesus or YHWH - he does not - but it's childish to expect to to wield some sentence of some letter of St. Paul as a mandate in modern government to do anything. There will no doubt be a handful of loons who agree with the fellow who does so, but the whole Christian establishment, across the spectrum from Catholic to Baptist, will utterly reject the argument.

We live in a democratic republic. We have decided what our laws will be. Many of them are inspired by Biblical ideas, to be sure, but they are interpreted as we, as a society, have decided they are to be interpreted and applied - or not applied - through our elected government and our civil judiciary.

Any magistrate who sits on a bench anywhere who decides that he, spontaneously of his own authority, now has the right to start applying some DIFFERENT law other than the laws duly enacted by our country, has gone out of his mind. HE may decide that he has the "right", but he will no have the power, because he will no longer be a magistrate the day he starts doing that.

The writers of the Old Testament do not determine law enforcement of the Western World. We the people do. If anybody pretends otherwise, it is a pretense that will be met by laughter, at best. If anybody goes off his rocker enough to try to actually enforce his own will on the matter, as magistrates and judges occasionally have from time to time, usually in their old age, they are very swiftly removed from the bench and their decisions are null from the start.

God never intervenes to support them either, because theologically they would be wrong.

The law of the Old Testament consists of three major parts: A brief directive law to reproduce and eat plants and fill the world, given to the species at creation, a revision to that law permitting the eating of meat but prohibiting human bloodshed that was given to Noah and all of mankind after the Flood, and then the Law of Sinai, given by YHWH to Moses and the Hebrews of the Exodus.

Only the first two of those laws ever applied to anybody but the Hebrews.

Leaving aside democratic and pragmatic realities, it is theologically wrong for anybody to hold up the Law of Sinai and claim that that is the law for the world, or that it EVER was. It NEVER was. Not ever. All it is, or ever was, by its own literal terms (to those who bother to read it carefully - few do) is a contract between two parties: YHWH, and the Hebrews assembled at Mt Sinai. The terms of the contract are thus: IF you Hebrews do all of these things in the land of Canaan I will be giving you, then I will give you a secure farm there. And if you don't do them, I will take back that security.

That is it. That is all. There is nothing more to that law. No matter how many emotional claims are made otherwise, it is not a law for the world.

There is never any promise of, nor even MENTION of, life after death, eternal life, final judgement - anything after life at all - in the Old Testament Law. It's entire focus is THIS life, and the only promise is a literal, physical farm, in peace, in the land of Canaan, in this life, for the Hebrews hearing the covenant, and their circumcised lineal heirs who kept the whole law.

The Old Testament does not tell men "how to go to Heaven". In fact, it doesn't ever say that men ever go TO Heaven. The dead in the OT go into the ground, down to Sheol, and stay there, as shades. That's the end of it. A handful of prophetic statements towards the end of the OT suggest otherwise, maybe, but none of that is the Old Testament Law. The Law is found entirely in the Torah.

Essentially, a magistrate who started to enforce the Old Testament Law would be a madman who was violating his oath of office in pursuit of a religious belief that would be an idiotic form of heresy. He would be stricken from the bench as soon as he stared doing so, his judgments would be nullified, no credible Christians or Jews would support his efforts, and neither would God. He would have completely misread the law of his own land AND the Torah, and should be nowhere near a seat of judgment, as he would lack any.
 
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Vicomte13

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the entire Bible has to be the Word of God anyway because... well, because it says it is.
And the kicker is, "it" doesn't say that. "It" never defines what "it" is. It's a completely circular and hopeless muddle, which is one of the reasons I've mostly stopped discussing it across denominational lines. There's a whole lot of crazy in the world, and it doesn't get better by paying attention to it.
 
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Copperhead

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Some really need to look at the laws and their requirements in the OT. Much of it is victim oriented, which truly is justice compared to the system we have today.

For instance, instead of someone being locked up for stealing, thereby causing the rest of us to be billed to warehouse the idiot, the thief would be required to work and repay the victim for the theft 2-3 times over. The majority of the judicial law was focused in this manner. It actually is the basis for the the section in the U.S. Constitution that still to this day allow a person to be forced into indentured servitude to repay the victim.

If a death was accidental, in our terms today, manslaughter. The person who did it could seek safety from the Goel (avenger of blood) by going to one of the cities of refuge and remaining their until the death of the high priest. At that time, the person would be free of judgment.

And this idea of being free from the law.... every one of the 10 commandments is reiterated in the NT as valid. Only one not addressed is the 4th (the keeping of the Sabbath). And all of these are summed up, as Jesus said, into two commandments...... Love the Lord with all you heart, mind, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

I would rather the OT law be applied than the mess that is called the justice system today. Not out of some blood thirsty retribution thing, but as a victim oriented restitution thing as even the OT intended.
 
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Apostolic1

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No. The Bible tells us Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and made a new covenant. Paul called the law "the ministry of death". The law was a curse/school master given to a stiff necked people who boasted to God that they could do anything he commanded.
Returning to the law would make the sacrifice Jesus made of no effect. It would curse everyone involved.
2 Cor 3:6; Gal 3:13, 5:3-6; James 2:10; Matthew 22:37-40
 
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Ffraid

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I would rather the OT law be applied than the mess that is called the justice system today. Not out of some blood thirsty retribution thing, but as a victim oriented restitution thing as even the OT intended.

Thing is, dollars to donuts the people salivating over the prospect just want to stone adulteresses and gay people.
 
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