Old Testament and the Second coming of Christ

[juvenissun]

The OT does not mention the coming of Christ.

Any such reading is a misreading of scripture by Christians anxious to prove what does not otherwise exist.

Certainly certain texts may be read as if they are some sort of prophecy but that is a conscious choice to read the texts in that way. In other words, it is easy reading backwards into history.

A close look at Matthew and Mark where OT texts are supposedly quoted demonstrate how wrong such quotes really are. Even when Luke has Jesus speaking in Chapter 4 Jesus gets it wrong when purportedly quoting from Isaiah.

The problem with Christianity is that it does not read scripture with any real precision and as a result the OT becomes a playground for fantasy hunters.

I don't think I am taking it out of the context. This statement, at anywhere, is not appropriate.

 

[TR23]

'Belief' is an over rated topic.

If you neither believe the new testament is an accurate record of Jesus's life and ministry, nor believe Jesus was the messiah, then what makes you christian? By definition it is one who believes Jesus was the jewish messiah.

My faith was not awoken by reading the OT.

I didn't say it was. I said that if you came to understand the deep tapestry of connections then your faith in the bible as a divinely inspired document will increase.

With all the various texts it does not take long to string a few together to make any connection one wishes - for good or for ill.

The misconception you appear to have is that there are only a handful of tenuous connections. When the truth is that every aspect of christ's ministry, sacrifice, and reign in heaven is woven into the fabric of the OT and can be viewed as god's ultimate plan from the beginning.
Things like the tabernacle and the priesthood are deepingly symbolic of christ, his role, and how we are to relate to him, providing the israelites with a foundation for understanding the message christ would eventually bring.
That's just one example, but there's so much more, especially in exodus. As you realize how deep and elaborate the connections are, it becomes difficult to believe that a few men could sit down and craft all this themselves, because it is so thorough and elegant.

I understand where you are coming from. What I am suggesting is that you place too much emphasis on such connections and therefore see things that are not that apparent.

Jesus as the messiah is everything. If it is not important to you, then what exactly is important to you?
Without Jesus being the messiah then neither book means anything.

 

[ebia]

I have no real issue with your synopsis but please remember I was responding to another post posing another issue and I was address that issue.



Where did I suggest as much?

That seemed to be what you were saying, but if I misread that then fair enough.

 

[wayseer]

If you neither believe the new testament is an accurate record of Jesus's life and ministry, nor believe Jesus was the messiah, then what makes you christian? By definition it is one who believes Jesus was the jewish messiah.

Like Jesus, I hope, I try to 'do' Christianity - not talk about it.

I didn't say it was. I said that if you came to understand the deep tapestry of connections then your faith in the bible as a divinely inspired document will increase.

There are other equally divinely inspired texts which serve to connect with that 'deep tapestry' which you mention. The biblical texts are only 'biblical' in that the Church told us that only the 'biblical texts' are divinely inspired. Like many things, the Church got that wrong too.

The misconception you appear to have is that there are only a handful of tenuous connections. When the truth is that every aspect of christ's ministry, sacrifice, and reign in heaven is woven into the fabric of the OT and can be viewed as god's ultimate plan from the beginning.
Things like the tabernacle and the priesthood are deepingly symbolic of christ, his role, and how we are to relate to him, providing the israelites with a foundation for understanding the message christ would eventually bring.
That's just one example, but there's so much more, especially in exodus. As you realize how deep and elaborate the connections are, it becomes difficult to believe that a few men could sit down and craft all this themselves, because it is so thorough and elegant.

As I said, you can make any number of connections as you wish. But all of that is only 'connected' in hindsight.

Jesus as the messiah is everything. If it is not important to you, then what exactly is important to you?

The love of God and my neighbours.

Without Jesus being the messiah then neither book means anything.

Now you are confusing two separate issues. I have made no pronouncement that Jesus is not the Messiah. What I have questioned is the enthusiasm displayed in backtracking such concepts into every nook and cranny of the OT and claiming 'I've found it'!

 

[Willandjamie]

Hi

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

God bless

 

[TR23]

Like Jesus, I hope, I try to 'do' Christianity - not talk about it.

If you reduce Jesus to nothing but a moral teacher, reducing his life and ministry to a mere philosophy about how we deal with others, then everything written would be meaningless, and so would any effort to have a personal relationship with him.
Knowing that miracles still happen today and that god speaks to us through the holy spirit, I know that Jesus was not merely a philosopher teaching otherwise secular princibles about human behavior.

There are other equally divinely inspired texts which serve to connect with that 'deep tapestry' which you mention.

Name them.

Now you are confusing two separate issues. I have made no pronouncement that Jesus is not the Messiah.

You either believe he was the jewish messiah or you don't. Which is it?

If you are undecided then you really need to do more research on the deep connections between the OT and NT.
I was once in your position. The situation is resolved by diving deeper into study. What is easy to dismiss at first glance as a handful of superficial connections will eventually be shown to be a deep tapestry where the OT and NT weave together - Something you can only get if you really dive into an understanding of the hebraic culture and theology, the environment the NT was written in.

What I have questioned is the enthusiasm displayed in backtracking such concepts into every nook and cranny of the OT and claiming 'I've found it'!

The OT is a shadow of the NT to come.
And the NT is the revelation of what was hidden in the OT.
Once you understand this princible and do some deeper research you'll understand why the OT truly does have the messiah woven all throughout it's fabric.

You cannot understand one without the other.
The NT was not written in isolation, with scholars later making slapdash connections. The apostles and Jesus himself make deep symbolic connections with the OT to demonstrate that fact that the OT was a picture of christ to come.

So deep is the connection between the two, that when you really research it you cannot reasonably conclude that a few men sat around and decided to weave together this tale from whole cloth.

 

[wayseer]

If you reduce Jesus to nothing but a moral teacher, reducing his life and ministry to a mere philosophy about how we deal with others, then everything written would be meaningless, and so would any effort to have a personal relationship with him.
Knowing that miracles still happen today and that god speaks to us through the holy spirit, I know that Jesus was not merely a philosopher teaching otherwise secular princibles about human behavior.

You can think as much as you wish. Jesus was interested in what we did.

Name them.

Augustine's Confession would be a good start.

You either believe he was the jewish messiah or you don't. Which is it?

Who cares what I believe.

The OT is a shadow of the NT to come.
And the NT is the revelation of what was hidden in the OT.
Once you understand this princible and do some deeper research you'll understand why the OT truly does have the messiah woven all throughout it's fabric.

The principle involved is the principles that because we have the 'New' Testament there must therefore be an 'Old' Testament. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

You cannot understand one without the other.

That is another argument.

The NT was not written in isolation, with scholars later making slapdash connections.

That is exactly what the Gospels writer did - make many imaginative connection.

The apostles and Jesus himself make deep symbolic connections with the OT to demonstrate that fact that the OT was a picture of christ to come.

Most of the so-called OT quotes by allegedly spoken by Jesus and the Gospel writer are wrong.

Certainly the OT provides valuable material but I am suggesting that at times we place far too much stock ion the connections.

 

[TR23]

With everything Jesus said an did, his nature and purpose, being encoded into the tabernacle and the priestly services of the old testament, and being encoded as symbolism and truths about god's dealings with Isreal from the very beginning...Really too much to go into, I wouldn't know where to start other than to point out a few poignant examples, but without having a broader undstanding of how this weaves throughout the whole OT you'd probably just dismiss them as isolated connections and not part of a larger tapestry.

With further study it would be impossible for you to say the connections are only haphazard, and inept at that. At the very least, it would have taken a group of inspired geniuses with an exceptionally deep knowledge of all things involving the jewish religion and it's mysteries to even begin to weave together a story of christ that fit so well, something that would hold up to the test of time and even grow as we uncover more understanding of the connections (With the re-merging of jews and christians in the messianic movement, combined with the increase in access to knowledge we have today, our knowledge of the connections in the OT is growing to a level the christian world probably hasn't seen since the first apostalic churches that involved jews rather than gentiles).

Everything in the NT has to be viewed through the OT and the hebrew culture of the time in order to fully understand it's significance.
Much as those with incomplete knowledge and understanding of the bible will often accuse the bible of having contradictions where there really are none, you're accusing the OT and NT of having superficial and senseless connections because you have incomplete knowledge and understanding of how the two really connect.
Messianic jewish sources are often the best places to learn about these connections because they approach the NT from it's proper perspective. Whereas traditional preachers and theologians approach it from the traditional catholic and protestant perspective which early on tried to divorce itself from everything jewish, so they often aren't aware of the connections.

 

[TR23]

YouTube - The Great Secret of Solomon's Temple - Part 4 of 11 - By Michael Rood

There's just one example of how something seemingly insignificant to a christian, the nature of the fringes on a priestly garment, meant so much to the full understanding of an event in the bible.

And if so much can be drawn from that little thing, consider how much more are you not currently aware of. This subject can fill endless books and DVDs.

I'd recommend if you're interested in making a full and complete assessment of the OT and NT connections (as any truthseeker of god's divine truth should be), that you could start by watching that guy's youtube videos on the subject as a way to get introduced to the subject.
Other good teachers who specialize in the connections between the OT and NT I've found are Rabbi Schneider and Perry Stone, but you've got to buy their material.
Both part of an emerging movement where Jews are becoming Messianic believers in Jesus, and Christians are rediscovering Hebraic roots to understand Jesus in a way that they really never have in their history as gentile believers seperated largely from hebraic traditions and teachings.

 

[Johnnz]

Anyone taking a position against the reliability of the NT cannot bypass N T Wright's recent books. A Forum such as this will largely be viewpoints with varying degrees of justification. A refutation of Wright's scholarship published in somewhere appropriate for scholarly review would be far more authoritative.

John
NZ

 

[TR23]

Dr. Micheal Brown is also a great resource for learning about the true extent of the connections between the OT and NT, as he specializes in answering jewish objections to jesus being the messiah.

Search out his debates and videos on youtube.

 

[n2thelight]

The OT frequently mentions the coming of the Messiah but where does it mention that the Messiah will come twice? I know there is a mention in Daniel about the Son of God descending on a cloud at the end times but not that this is the second coming.

Every mention of the day of the Lord in the Old Testament as well as the New,is the 2nd coming...

1. Isaiah 2:12
   For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
2. Isaiah 13:6
   Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
3. Isaiah 13:9
   Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
4. Jeremiah 46:10
   For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
5. Ezekiel 13:5
   Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6. Ezekiel 30:3
   For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
7. Joel 1:15
   Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
8. Joel 2:1
   Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
9. Joel 2:11
   And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
10. Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
11. Joel 3:14
    Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
12. Amos 5:18
    Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
13. Amos 5:20
    Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
14. Obadiah 1:15
    For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
15. Zephaniah 1:7
    Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
16. Zephaniah 1:14
    The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
17. Zechariah 14:1
    Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
18. Malachi 4:5
    Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

 

[Heavens]

The OT frequently mentions the coming of the Messiah but where does it mention that the Messiah will come twice? I know there is a mention in Daniel about the Son of God descending on a cloud at the end times but not that this is the second coming.

Hi Sue,

There is no teaching of a "second coming" in the O.T. any more than in the N.T.
The only reason people began teaching it was because they "knew not the time of their visitation" when He Came.

(Luk 19:44) And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

They thought He was going to establish a physical kingdom on the planet, instead of the Kingdom of God within us by His Holy Spirit.

Those teachings are called "jewish fables";

(Tit 1:14) Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

(Luk 17:20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Because this is the fulfillment of all O.T. prophecies;

(Luk 17:21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Leaves no mystery does it

Blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord!

 

[freezerman2000]

Psalm 22 is a good chapter to get a glimpse of prophecy concerning Jesus' first coming. The book of Isaiah provides numerous glimpses into what life and the world will be like after Jesus' return. Isaiah 53 is particularly insightful, showing Jesus as both the conquering king and the suffering servant.

Generally, Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah are in one of two camps: the sacrificial lamb and the conquering king. I do not know exactly where in the Old Testament you can find specific reference to two separate comings, but the division of the prophecies necessitates two separate comings; Jesus already came as the sacrificial lamb, all that is left is for him to fulfill the conquering king role.

Welcome to CF, Dave!!!