Old Slavonic

[D+C]

Hello again,

You may remember a couple of years ago I posted on TAW about my faltering, bambi-on-ice attempts to understand and potentially join my local Greek (Antiochian) Orthodox Church. A lot has happened since then and I have moved to a new area. Happily in the next month or so I am visiting a local Orthodox Church in ROCOR, and I have been advised that the services are conducted by an english speaking priest in English and Old Slavonic. I have never heard of Old Slavonic, and beyond finding out that it is a liturgical language with a fascinating heritage, my Google-fu has yielded little.

What can I expect when I visit this parish? They meet in an Anglican Church once a month so I have to wait a little while for the experience.

God bless,
D+C

 

[Wesley1982]

What's wrong with English?...

 

[D+C]

What's wrong with English?...

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but why do you ask that? I'm afraid I don't follow.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but why do you ask that? I'm afraid I don't follow.

it's Wes, he is sometimes a tad hard to follow.

but expect it to be very connected to Russia, bass deacons, a lot of incense, a service that is an hour-ish, and a capella singing. you will see a lot of bows, crosses, folks kissing things, standing for the service,etc. don't do what you feel is uncomfortable.

try to talk to the priest when done, keep us in the loop, and welcome back!

 

[Anhelyna]

Ah - ROCOR in the UK

Most probably, from my experience, Chanters at the Kliros [ a stand with music on it ] - and very little sung by the faithful. Also man and women are usually separated - men on the right and ladies on the left .

If they use an Anglican Church you are likely to find them using the pews - and being very honest, standing in pews is not the most comfortable - just sit when you find it necessary - no-one will make any comments. Please do ensure you stand for the Gospel [ they sing Alleluia just before that and you can spot that even in Slavonic ]

Do try and talk to the priest -either before or after - he will probably be there about an hour beforehand.

And yes - please do let us know how you get on

 

[Wesley1982]

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but why do you ask that? I'm afraid I don't follow.

We need to understand what is going on Liturgically in English before experimenting with foreign languages.

 

[D+C]

We need to understand what is going on Liturgically in English before experimenting with foreign languages.

OK, I understand now. I haven't sought this church out on the basis of language, this just happens to be what there is and I have been invited to go along!

So it sounds like this is going to be very different to my experiences at the Antiochian Orthodox church? Not least because the Divine Liturgy there lasted for considerably more than one hour!

I am still not clear on this combination of Old Slavonic and English. Is Old Slavonic used in the same way as Latin is used in the Latin Mass? Is it a "dead" language that no one in the room will understand or is it accessible for those who speak Slavic languages? And which bits are likely to be in English and which bits Old Slavonic?

I will definitely post a report after my visit, but as I am travelling in the US for most of this month and the congregation meets once a month it is unlikely to be until the back end of August!

 

[Anhelyna]

I sometimes attend the Russian Orthodox Church here [ mainly for Feast Day Liturgies when we do not have a priest in my own Ukrainian parish ]

Their Liturgies are a mixture of Slavonic and English . Slavonic was what they were brought up using at Church and so they continue to use it . The children are taught it so its use will continue.

Greeks frequently do the same - Serve 50/50 English and Greek - though depending on the make up of the local Community they may have an all English Liturgy from time to time . Again our local Greek Cathedral has an all English Liturgy one Sunday a month .

Last time I was at the Russians - all chant was in Slavonic , the Epistle was in Slavonic the Gospel was in both languages and Father preached first in Russian and then at the end of Liturgy spoke in English. I was the only Catholic present and obviously stood out on a weekday Feast day Liturgy. Liturgy that day lasted from 10.30 to noon Everyone Communed [ except me obviously ] and there were about 20 there. Sunday will clearly take a bit longer .

Language use - well being very honest you will find it varies enormously from Jurisdiction to Jurisdiction and parish to parish within a jurisdiction . My own parish will have to change to English in order to survive - at present we have the Epistle in both languages and the Gospel and homily in English - everything else is Ukrainian. Our temporary priest can Serve in Ukrainian [ the Priest's 'private' prayers are in English ]. If our Bishop is with us he switches from Ukrainian to English and back again. His intent is to find us a bilingual priest - not an easy job persuading a Bishop in Ukraine [ or the USA] to release on of his priest for the UK

Apologies for the length of this - but it may prove to help

 

[Wesley1982]

I think Slavonic or Ukranian is native to European villages.

 

[D+C]

Thank you for your replies!

I have had a lovely, fulsome email from a Western Rite Orthodox Priest from within ROCOR, advising me as to how to progress. He has recommended some prayer books for my own contemplation and invited me to some ROCOR Western Rite services at Glastonbury to complement whatever experience awaits me at the local ROCOR monthly service.

Out of interest, do Orthodox converts whose home church meets infrequently attend non-Eucharistic services at other churches? Evensong, for example?

 

[Anhelyna]

I'll leave this for my Orthodox Friends to comment - I can't help here.

Yes if I can't go to my EC Parish, I'll happily attend an EO Parish as we use the same liturgy - but ROCOR WR uses a different Liturgy from ROCOR Eastern Rite and this could prove confusing for you , and adding in attendance at another Church - albeit at a non-Eucharistic Service could well add to this.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for your replies!

I have had a lovely, fulsome email from a Western Rite Orthodox Priest from within ROCOR, advising me as to how to progress. He has recommended some prayer books for my own contemplation and invited me to some ROCOR Western Rite services at Glastonbury to complement whatever experience awaits me at the local ROCOR monthly service.

Out of interest, do Orthodox converts whose home church meets infrequently attend non-Eucharistic services at other churches? Evensong, for example?

I did during my military training sessions that kept me away from a Church, albeit with some guidance from my priest.

 

[Wesley1982]

OK, I understand now. I haven't sought this church out on the basis of language, this just happens to be what there is and I have been invited to go along!

So it sounds like this is going to be very different to my experiences at the Antiochian Orthodox church? Not least because the Divine Liturgy there lasted for considerably more than one hour!

I am still not clear on this combination of Old Slavonic and English. Is Old Slavonic used in the same way as Latin is used in the Latin Mass? Is it a "dead" language that no one in the room will understand or is it accessible for those who speak Slavic languages? And which bits are likely to be in English and which bits Old Slavonic?

I will definitely post a report after my visit, but as I am travelling in the US for most of this month and the congregation meets once a month it is unlikely to be until the back end of August!

Slavonic was the language of Sts. Cyril and Methodius (I think) Unless you are from the Slavic people.

Its crucial to understand what is going on (liturgically) English first.

 

[Boris89]

Slavonic was the language of Sts. Cyril and Methodius (I think) Unless you are from the Slavic people.

Its crucial to understand what is going on (liturgically) English first.

Is Old Slavonic used in the same way as Latin is used in the Latin Mass? Is it a "dead" language that no one in the room will understand or is it accessible for those who speak Slavic languages?

Well Old Church slavonic has had quite a story. First of all St. Cyril and Methodius' were greeks. They were sent to the principality Great Moravia(roughly todays Czech republic) to create an alphabet for the slavs and translate the Bible for them. At first they created the so called Glagolithic alphabet to help them which was quite complex. They also had their own disciples and after being pressured by the local catholic and pro-German circles three of these disciples fled to the Principality of Bulgaria (St Clement of Ohrid, St. Naum and St. Angelarius - he died soon after) which was also a mainly slavic state, only just Christianised by Constantinople. The ruler St. Boris I graciously welcomed them and there these disciples founded literaly schools to translate the Bible and other Greek ecclesiastical texts. They made simplifications of the Glagolithic alphabet which resulted in todays Cyrillic alphabet. Old church slavonic literature flourished and from Bulgaria it slowly found it's way to Russia for use in lithurgies. Today's Bulgarians and Russians can understand most of the Old church slavonic. Only some of the words sound archaic but in general it's not a problem.

As for comparing it with the usage of Latin, there is a difference. Back in the day Rome held the position that God should be glorified only in three "sacred" languages (Greek, Latin and Hebrew) but Constantinople always had the policy of allowing local people to use their own language in their churches. St. Cyril led a great dispute about this with the roman clergy and easily overcame their arguments. Making the average slavic peasant listen a lithurgy in Greek was basically useless as he wouldn't understand a thing. That's pretty much it.

 

[D+C]

To keep you updated, I do feel in very capable hands with the ROCOR Western Rite mission. I will be attending a Western Rite Divine Liturgy and an Old Slavonic Divine Liturgy in the next month or so. This is all I am likely to have access to locally, so I am talking with the priests of both churches to see how best this might constitute a spiritual foundation, and what other disciplines I could incorporate into my day to day life.

I do appreciate the potential for confusion in attending both Western Rite and Eastern Rite Liturgies, especially with the Old Slavonic issue. I have raised this with the WR priest and am looking forward to his response. I do know that in the UK almost everyone who attends WR services also attends ER services. As I have been told, Orthodox first, Western Rite very much second. Does anyone here have any further thoughts on this?

 

[Dylan Michael]

As for comparing it with the usage of Latin, there is a difference. Back in the day Rome held the position that God should be glorified only in three "sacred" languages (Greek, Latin and Hebrew) but Constantinople always had the policy of allowing local people to use their own language in their churches. St. Cyril led a great dispute about this with the roman clergy and easily overcame their arguments. Making the average slavic peasant listen a lithurgy in Greek was basically useless as he wouldn't understand a thing. That's pretty much it.

In Dalmatia and surrounding areas, The Catholic mass was said in Old Church Slavonic.

 

[AndreasProtoklitos]

Thank you for your replies!

I have had a lovely, fulsome email from a Western Rite Orthodox Priest from within ROCOR, advising me as to how to progress. He has recommended some prayer books for my own contemplation and invited me to some ROCOR Western Rite services at Glastonbury to complement whatever experience awaits me at the local ROCOR monthly service.

Out of interest, do Orthodox converts whose home church meets infrequently attend non-Eucharistic services at other churches? Evensong, for example?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Glad you are in touch with an Orthodox priest! When it is not possible for Orthodox to assemble for corporate worship, we still pray, but it is not advisable to attend religious services outside of Orthodoxy. We can pray individually at home in our prayer corners and/or gather together with our fellow Orthodox believers for Reader's services when a priest or other clergy cannot lead the services.

I'd recommend reading through Hieromonk Aidan's section on liturgics (www . allmercifulsavior . com/Liturgy/Liturgics . html --just get rid of the spaces) of his Western Rite blog which has a good number of services that the average layman could do. Of course it isn't a substitute for attending Liturgy when we're able.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Misha777]

On Slavonic:

Slavonic is the original language into which the Greek was translated by missionaries to the Slavs. Essentially, it is Old Bulgarian. Russians understand it about as well as we understand Chaucer, or possibly Shakespeare, in the original. It served as sort of a lingua franca among Slavic clergy and may still among the more well educated to this day. The back and forth from Slavonic to English is usually done one litany in English, one in Slavonic, one hymn in English, one in Slavonic, so hopefully you won't have to wait too long to hear something intelligible.

The other thing you will notice that is different from the Antiochian church is the music. Usually Antiochian parishes have Byzantine music. Russian parishes have music that sounds more Central European.

If you are going to a ROCOR parish, they will probably want you to cease attending non-Orthodox services by the time you officially join. It's against canon law and they take it seriously.