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Old Earth Creationism

BPPLEE

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What do you mean by "progressive creationism"?
Progressive creationism is an old earth theory that the days in Genesis are periods of time not 24 hour days and basically that God created life and when it went extinct he created more life and it progressed until he created man. There's more to it than that but that's the short version. Hugh Ross is a proponent and he has a website called Reasons to Believe and has written several books from this viewpoint
 
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BPPLEE

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I actually enjoy going to the Lutheran church. Their music is amazing.
You should go where you like and not be beholden to a denomination. I don't think any denomination is perfect. Go where you are comfortable and get the most out of it.
Would be my advice. The one true Church is everyone who is saved not a denomination.
 
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FaithT

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You should go where you like and not be beholden to a denomination. I don't think any denomination is perfect. Go where you are comfortable and get the most out of it.
Would be my advice. The one true Church is everyone who is saved not a denomination.
Yeah but……they’re YEC and anti-theistic evolution. That’s my problem.
 
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FaithT

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And how does this make any sense? How could anyone condone the Catholic Church but then simultaneously reject the theory of evolution which the Pope has stated isn't in contradiction with the faith?
I’m glad you brought that up.
 
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FaithT

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What denominations are there that allow for belief in theistic evolution and an old earth besides Catholic? To my knowledge I’ve checked out all the churches I’m willing to drive to and I either didn’t like the church or they didn’t agree with my beliefs.
 
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Buzzard3

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Progressive creationism is an old earth theory that the days in Genesis are periods of time not 24 hour days and basically that God created life and when it went extinct he created more life and it progressed until he created man. There's more to it than that but that's the short version. Hugh Ross is a proponent and he has a website called Reasons to Believe and has written several books from this viewpoint
Progressive creation is interesting and I wouldn't say it's wrong. I'm open to any ideas without committing to any one idea.

But having said that, I don't think Darwinian evolution is the truth (although I accept it is the best scientific explanation for the fossil record).
 
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PrincetonGuy

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never said it did. I said that's the message evolutionism sends to the masses.

You said in your post, “The danger of Darwinism is that it (falsely) claims that science has established that life on earth is purely the result of biological mechanisms ... therefore there was no need for a Creator God.”

The late William B. Provine (who was an atheist and a Professor of Biological Sciences at Cornell University), put it this way:

"Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either." (from a debate with Phillip E. Johnson at Stanford University, April 30, 1994)


That is a very naive and dangerous point of view. The theory of evolution has the potential to erase God from the equation as the author of creation, by attributing the history of life on earth to purely natural mechanisms.

It is a ridiculously absurd point of view that kicks evolutionary biology in the gut. I will say it again, evolutionary biology is a branch of science—it is NOT a branch of philosophy.

Satan is the author of the YEC movement? That's absurd ... not to mention, grossly offensive to many thousands of sincere Christians who love the Lord.

I have NEVER said or suggested such a thing! I wrote,

Satan has caused countless Christian to become so obsessed with arguing against the theory of evolution that Christians appear to others to be intellectually challenged baboons suffering from the late stages of dementia.​

Obsessions that are so overwhelming that they dictate the very nature of ones behavior are a form of mental illness.

Before my Damascus road experience in which “I” died, I was an evolutionary biologist at a large university and all of my friends were scientists. I did not know the religious views of any of them because such subjects as religion, God, and atheism never came up. Off campus, however, I found myself visiting a Baptist coffeehouse in which three subjects dominated everything else,

A personal relationship with Christ
Young earth creationism
Evolution

The first of the three was entirely new to me and I found it to be intriguing. I wanted to know more about it, but discussions about it were very quickly superseded by the other two. I knew that the earth was at least hundreds of millions of years old, but where it came from was of no interest to me. I also knew that the data supporting the theory of evolution was massive, and that the anomalous tidbits that some rightwing extremists were fusing over were of no importance in the grand scale of things.

And then one night, off campus and away from the Baptist coffeehouse I met a young man name Rick—a very likeable young man who boldly told me that there was something missing in my life—a personal relationship with Christ! Rick and I met a few times, and each time we spent hours talking about my need for a personal relationship with Christ. Rick was very careful to keep the conversations on track with no digressions into young earth creationism or evolution.

Nonetheless, I continued visiting the Baptist coffeehouse and some of the people there learned that I was a scientist. Now, all that they wanted to do was to persuade me that the earth is no more than 10,000 years old and that the theory of evolution is a big lie. They did not care about me—they only cared about what I believed regarding young earth creationism and evolution. The personal relationship with Christ that Rick had and loved to share seemed to be missing in their lives.

I began going to an Assembly of God Church and although the congregations and the pastors knew that I was a scientist, that did not concern them at all. What did concern them was my need for a personal relationship with Christ—and they resolved to faithfully and diligently pray for me until I had a life-changing relationship with Christ and was firmly anchored in my faith.

I still knew for an incontrovertible fact that the earth was at least hundreds of millions of years old, and that the data supporting the theory of evolution was massive, but their love for me and their months of praying for me enabled me to set those issues aside so that Christ could not only come into my life, but become my life. I asked Jesus to save me from my sins; nothing seemed to change for three weeks—but . . . then it happened! One moment I was me, and the very next moment Christ reached out and touched me and instantly made me a new man in Christ.
 
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Buzzard3

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And how does this make any sense? How could anyone condone the Catholic Church but then simultaneously reject the theory of evolution which the Pope has stated isn't in contradiction with the faith?
As a Catholic do you disagree with a pope?
You misunderstand Catholicism. Catholics are not obliged to accept the theory of evolution, regardless of what any Pope thinks about it.
Catholics are free to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis if they want to, to believe in a young earth and to completely reject ToE ... or to have no opinion at all.
Catholic schools today teach theistic evolution.
They should be teaching Intelligent Design instead.
 
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Job 33:6

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You misunderstand Catholicism. Catholics are not obliged to accept the theory of evolution, regardless of what any Pope thinks about it.
Catholics are free to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis if they want to, to believe in a young earth and to completely reject ToE ... or to have no opinion at all.

They should be teaching Intelligent Design instead.

The question is,

"That is a very naive and dangerous point of view. The theory of evolution has the potential to erase God from the equation as the author of creation, by attributing the history of life on earth to purely natural mechanisms." -blizzard

If the Catholic churchs official position, and the Pope, is that the theory of evolution is not in conflict with teachings of the church, then How could you consider it a dangerous point of view with the potential to erase God? Do you think the papacy somehow overlooked this detail when embracing the theory as a viable option? Much less as a Catholic would I expect you to have such a view that clearly contrasts with the leaders of your denomination. It sounds like your theological beliefs may be significantly different from theirs.
 
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Buzzard3

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If the Catholic churchs official position, and the Pope, is that the theory of evolution is not in conflict with teachings of the church, then How could you consider it a dangerous point of view with the potential to erase God?
Because ToE can be interpreted by some people to mean that life on earth is the result of a natural process and that therefore there is no need for a Creator.

Go on any atheist website and you'll find that this is precisely how they think.
Do you think the papacy somehow overlooked this detail when embracing the theory as a viable option?
I don't know.
Much less as a Catholic would I expect you to have such a view that clearly contrasts with the leaders of your denomination.
It sounds like your theological beliefs may be significantly different from theirs.
As a Catholic I am free to point out the spiritual danger of ToE, free to completely reject it (which I don't) and free to denounce ToE as idiotic nonsense, if that were my opinion (which it isn't).
 
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Buzzard3

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I have NEVER said or suggested such a thing!
Really? You said "Satan has caused countless Christian to become so obsessed with ..."

That sounds to me like you're saying Christians (who oppose Darwinism) have been influenced or misled by Satan. How else am I supposed to read it?
Satan has caused countless Christian to become so obsessed with arguing against the theory of evolution that Christians appear to others to be intellectually challenged baboons suffering from the late stages of dementia.

Obsessions that are so overwhelming that they dictate the very nature of ones behavior are a form of mental illness.
Now you seem to be suggesting that Christians who oppose Darwinism are mentally ill. Fascinating stuff!
It is a ridiculously absurd point of view that kicks evolutionary biology in the gut. I will say it again, evolutionary biology is a branch of science—it is NOT a branch of philosophy.
I've spent considerable time on atheist sites. One of the most common lines of reasoning on such sites goes something like this: Life on earth is the result of (Darwinian) evolution, the mechanisms of which are now known and understood, therefore your creator god is superfluous and is nothing more than primitve, superstitious, anti-science nonsense.
In Atheism Land, ToE is in effect worshipped (see Roman 1:25)
and is an atheist's no.1 weapon against belief in a Creator.
Anyone who denies the powerful link between ToE and atheist philosophy is living in a dreamworld.

Incidentally, I'm amazed by how many Christian biologists I've come across who vehemently deny the obvious link between ToE and atheism - it's as if these scientists are so besotted with ToE that they can't handle the thought that their beloved theory might have a dark side.
 
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FaithT

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Because ToE can be interpreted by some people to mean that life on earth is the result of a natural process and that therefore there is no need for a Creator.

Go on any atheist website and you'll find that this is precisely how they think.

I don't know.

As a Catholic I am free to point out the spiritual danger of ToE, free to completely reject it (which I don't) and free to denounce ToE as idiotic nonsense, if that were my opinion (which it isn't).
That’s why I keep wondering if I should return to Catholicism. You’re free to hold your own opinion on this topic. I guess one could say the same about the LCMS too, since they aren’t going to kick me out for having a different opinion than theirs but it just bothers me that they believe differently than I do.
 
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Buzzard3

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That’s why I keep wondering if I should return to Catholicism. You’re free to hold your own opinion on this topic. I guess one could say the same about the LCMS too, since they aren’t going to kick me out for having a different opinion than theirs but it just bothers me that they believe differently than I do.
If you return to the Catholic Church, no one is going to quizz you about your opinion of evolution or your interpretation of Genesis. It's a non-issue to 99.99% of Catholics.
 
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FaithT

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If you return to the Catholic Church, no one is going to quizz you about your opinion of evolution or your interpretation of Genesis. It's a non-issue to 99.99% of Catholics.
I know…..although to be fair nobody at my LCMS church has said anything about it, either.
 
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Buzzard3

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You said in your post, “The danger of Darwinism is that it (falsely) claims that science has established that life on earth is purely the result of biological mechanisms ... therefore there was no need for a Creator God.”
Sorry, my mistake ... although "Darwinism" and "evolutionism" are the same thing.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Really? You said "Satan has caused countless Christian to become so obsessed with ..."


That sounds to me like you're saying Christians (who oppose Darwinism) have been influenced or misled by Satan. How else am I supposed to read it?


Now you seem to be suggesting that Christians who oppose Darwinism are mentally ill. Fascinating stuff!

There is a HUGE difference between disagreeing with a point of view and having an unhealthy obsession regarding it.

I've spent considerable time on atheist sites. One of the most common lines of reasoning on such sites goes something like this: Life on earth is the result of (Darwinian) evolution, the mechanisms of which are now known and understood, therefore your creator god is superfluous and is nothing more than primitve, superstitious, anti-science nonsense.

In Atheism Land, ToE is in effect worshipped (see Roman 1:25)

and is an atheist's no.1 weapon against belief in a Creator.

Anyone who denies the powerful link between ToE and atheist philosophy is living in a dreamworld.


Incidentally, I'm amazed by how many Christian biologists I've come across who vehemently deny the obvious link between ToE and atheism - it's as if these scientists are so besotted with ToE that they can't handle the thought that their beloved theory might have a dark side.

Atheism is not a dark side of the theory of evolution. Atheism is a philosophical point of view; the theory of evolution is a branch of biology!

As I wrote above,

Science and religion are two very different disciplines that do not intersect. Therefore, science could not care less about the teachings of religion. However, individual evolutionists and other scientists may have religious beliefs, and among evolutionists we find Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Taoists, as well as persons with indigenous and ethnic beliefs. Some scientists, however, may have no religious beliefs, and a few of these scientists may be atheists—but atheism is uncommon among scientists because evidence is a major component of science, and evidence that God does not exist is seriously lacking!​

Knowing that the theory of evolution is supported by massive amounts scientific data has had no affect whatsoever upon my Christian beliefs. Moreover, knowing that the theory of evolution is supported by massive amounts scientific data should have no affect whatsoever upon the Christian beliefs of others. There is nothing more important to me than the truth, and I am not going flush down the toilet what God has chosen to make known to us through the biological and other natural science just because some atheists believe in the same truths. Indeed, the truth is always the truth regardless of who does or does not believe it.
 
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Job 33:6

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I know that. I never said they were.

Surely you're aware that theistic evolution includes the understanding that the theory of evolution is accurate science.

And with that, there's actually potential to bring glory to God, with regards to the theory of evolution. In contrast to the idea that this theory might erase God.
 
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Buzzard3

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Surely you're aware that theistic evolution includes the understanding that the theory of evolution is accurate science.
Er, no ... I'm not aware of that.
the theory of evolution is accurate science
What a curious claim. No one can prove that ToE is responsible for producing the fossil record, so how can you possibly know it's "accurate science"?
 
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