• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
Does anybody here have scholarly scientific links to prove creationism?
Does anybody have scholarly scientific links to prove evolutionism?
Nope - no one can prove that the history of life on earth proceeded according to the theory of evolution.
No one can even prove that the history of life on earth is the result of a contiguous biological process.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
Andrew A. Snelling is a YEC and "has a Ph.D. in geology from the University of Sydney from 1982.
He was, for a decade, the geology spokesman for the Creation Science Foundation, the coordinating center for creationism in Australia. He started working for Answers in Genesis in 2007 and serves as AiG's director of research.
Snelling has been published in standard geological publications estimating the age of geological specimens in billions of years, but has also written articles for creationist journals in which he supports a young-earth creationism viewpoint."
(Wikipedia)

He "completed a Bachelor of Science degree in Applied Geology with First Class Honours at The University of New South Wales in Sydney, and graduated a Doctor of Philosophy (in geology) at The University of Sydney, for his thesis entitled A geochemical study of the Koongarra uranium deposit, Northern Territory, Australia. Between studies and since, Andrew worked for six years in the exploration and mining industries in Tasmania, New South Wales, Victoria, Western Australia and the Northern Territory variously as a field, mine and research geologist. Full-time with the Australian creation ministry from 1983 to 1998, he was during this time also called upon as a geological consultant to the Koongarra uranium project (1983–1992)."
(creation.com)
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Non denominational .
I went to a ND for awhile. Then Covid hit and the head pastor made rude comments about people who wear masks so me and my mask went elsewhere. Also at the time I was divided between that church and the LCMS. LCMS won. Now I’m back to questioning the LCMS decision.
 
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
15,940
7,431
61
Montgomery
✟250,433.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I go to a Church I'm not a member of. I've attended fundamentalist, Southern Baptist, Church of God, Assembly of God and Church of Christ. I was a Youth Minister at a Baptist Church then at a Non Denominational Church. I'm going to a Church now I haven't joined because I don't agree with everything they believe. But my wife likes it there and I am probably going to find some things I don't agree on no matter where I go.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, my husband tells me the same thing, that no place I go will be perfect. But this belief in YEC at my church is a big problem for me even though they don’t preach about it and my pastor knows my opinions and has still welcomed me.
To be honest, my beliefs line up more with Catholicism than any of the other churches I’d be willing to drive to. The reason I left Catholicism for the LCMS is a shallow one. I hate most of the music at the RCC church and love the praise band at the LCMS
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don’t have any links but I do know scholars have pretty much proven in OEC and evolution.
 
Reactions: PrincetonGuy
Upvote 0

BPPLEE

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
15,940
7,431
61
Montgomery
✟250,433.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Interesting you bring up music. The Church of Christ doesn't have musical instruments and it drives me crazy. When I asked why they said it's because they didn't have musical instruments in the New Testament. I said well you've got speakers and microphones, they didn't have those in the New Testament. But they have an answer for everything. I think it's ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have several books on the topic of YEC and can’t buy more at this time, but can you tell me more about how this is an invention, in part, by the LCMS?
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I’ve also noticed that the church I go to now has an answer for everything, too.
 
Upvote 0

PrincetonGuy

Veteran
Feb 19, 2005
4,905
2,283
U.S.A.
✟168,598.00
Faith
Baptist
I am familiar with Andrew A. Snelling and the fact that for more than 20 years he has made his living, not as a scientist, but as a peddler of young earth creationism. Like all other pseudoscientists advocating for young earth creationism, his life is anchored in a severe misunderstanding of the Bible—especially Genesis 1-11.

This misunderstanding stems largely from the use of the King James Version of the Bible and its use of the word firmament in Genesis 1:6-8:

Genesis 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The KJV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “firmament”, but most modern readers of the KJV are unaware of the meaning of the word and do not realize that it expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome. Indeed, the word firmament comes to us from the Latin word firmamentum which comes from the infinitive of the Latin verb ‘firmare’ meaning, “to strengthen,” and the suffix ‘-ment’. The suffix ‘-ment’ in nouns expresses the result of the action of the infinitive of the cognate verb. Hence, the noun ‘firmament’ expresses the result of the action of the infinitive of the Latin verb ‘firmare’ meaning “to strengthen,” that is, “something that is strong.” In Genesis 1:6-8, the word expresses the concept of the strong, solid dome that supported the water above the dome. Compare the verb “accomplish” and the noun “accomplishment,” and the verb “advertise” and the noun “advertisement.” For detailed documentation, please see the Oxford English Dictionary.

When Wycliffe translated the Old Testament from the Latin Vulgate, he translated Genesis 1:6-7 as follows:

Genesis 1:6. And God seide, The firmament be maad in the myddis of watris, and departe watris fro watris.
7. And God made the firmament, and departide the watris that weren vndur the firmament fro these watris that weren on the firmament; and it was don so.

Wycliffe, of course, had no issue with the word “firmament” expressing the concept of a solid structure, but as the Church gradually accepted that the earth is not flat but nearly spherical, the Church gradually ignored the actual meaning of the word “firmament” and concocted a new one—“ the atmosphere.”

However, the Latin Vulgate was not the first translation of the Old Testament to interpret the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ as expressing a strong, solid structure. The translators of the Septuagint translated the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ using the Greek word, στερέωμα. This Greek word expresses the concept of “the sky as a supporting structure, the firmament.” (BDAG, the italics are theirs). This Greek word is also found in Paul’s writings to express the concept of a “state or condition of firm commitment, firmness, steadfastness” (BDAG, the italics are theirs),

Col. 2.5. εἰ γὰρ καὶ τῇ σαρκὶ ἄπειμι, ἀλλὰ τῷ πνεύματι σὺν ὑμῖν εἰμι, χαίρων καὶ βλέπων ὑμῶν τὴν τάξιν καὶ τὸ στερέωμα τῆς εἰς Χριστὸν πίστεως ὑμῶν. (NA28)

Col. 2.5. For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ. (NRSV)

The Greek word στερέωμα is also found in a number of other ancient Greek writings where it always expresses the concepts of something solid, strength, firmness or steadfastness. Indeed, all hands (even the folks at Answers in Genesis!) freely admit that this Greek word expresses in Genesis the concept of a ‘solid, supporting structure.’ However, the folks at Answers in Genesis deny that it is an accurate translation of the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ. Indeed, they write,

Critics of the Bible have often said that the writings of Genesis reflect an “unscientific view” of the universe—one that reflected the cosmology of the ancient world….The argument from these Bible critics is that the ancient Hebrews believed in a solid dome with the stars embedded in the dome. They say that the word firmament reflects the idea of firmness, and this reflects erroneous cosmology. Therefore, the Bible is not the inspired Word of God, and we don’t need to listen to its teaching.​

This is a willful and deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. The truth is that scholars of the Hebrew text of Genesis and the ancient translations of it into Greek and Latin agree that the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ expresses the concept of a solid structure, and that in the Old Testament it conveys the idea of a solid dome. Scholars of the history of the translation of the English Bible agree that the word firmament comes from the Latin word firmamentum in the Latin vulgate, which expresses the concept of the sky as a strong supporting structure. There are, of course, implications from these linguistic facts, but those implications are left for the exegetes and theologians to work out. Believing these linguistic facts and believing that the Bible is not the inspired Word of God and that we do not need to pay attention to its teachings are two entirely different concepts that Answers in Genesis dishonestly lumps together to deceive its readers.

And their deliberate and willful deception has only begun. Indeed they write,

The Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures produced by Jewish scholars in the third century BC at the request of the Egyptian pharaoh) translates raqia into the Greek word stereoma, which connotes a solid structure. Apparently, the translators of the Septuagint were influenced by the Egyptian view of cosmology, which embraced the notion of the heavens being a stone vault (after all, they were doing their translation work in Egypt!). Later, this Greek connotation influenced Jerome to the extent that, when he produced his Latin Vulgate around AD 400, he used the Latin word firmamentum (meaning a strong or steadfast support). The King James translators merely transliterated this Latin word—and thus was born the firmament.​

This fictitious gibberish is loosely based upon a letter supposedly written by Aristeas to Philocrates concerning the very early history of the Septuagint. There is absolutely nothing in the letter implying or even suggesting that the translation choices in the Septuagint were influenced by any Egyptians. Moreover, there is absolutely nothing in the letter regarding the Egyptian view of cosmology. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence of any kind whatsoever that the Egyptian view of cosmology influenced Jerome in his translation of the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ. Indeed, Old Latin translations of the Bible were based largely upon the Septuagint, but Jerome knew Hebrew and he revised the Old Latin translations to bring them into conformity with the Hebrew Text. Of course, the folks at Answers in Genesis do not provide any evidence to support their ludicrous and imaginative notion that some Egyptians influenced the wording of the Septuagint. Indeed, there is absolutely no evidence of any kind that some Egyptians influenced the wording of the Septuagint; but there is a massive amount of evidence that such a thing did not occur. I believe that the folks at Answers in Genesis know this, but that the very last things that they care about are the truth and the eternal harm that their lies are doing to unwary readers of their fictitious propaganda. In fact, the Scriptures themselves call the Apostle Paul as a witness to the fact that the Septuagint is an accurate translation of the Hebrew text. Indeed, Paul routinely quoted from the Septuagint as Scripture! (For extensive documentation and discussion of the issue, please see Beale, G.K. and Carson, D.A. eds. Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament. Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007. For more recent studies, please see Longnecker, Richard N. The Epistle to the Romans: A Commentary on the Greek Text [in the New International Greek Testament Commentary series]. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans publishing Co., 2016, and Harvey, John D. A Commentary on Romans [in the Kregel Exegetical Library series]. Grand Rapids: Kregel Academic, 2019).
 
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
I don’t have any links but I do know scholars have pretty much proven in OEC and evolution.
Well, that's interesting ... because it's impossible to prove that the history of life on earth is the result of evolution.

I suggest you've fallen victim to Darwinist propaganda (which is ubiquitous) and a modern myth.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, that's interesting ... because it's impossible to prove that the history of life on earth is the result of evolution.

I suggest you've fallen victim to Darwinist propaganda (which is ubiquitous) and a modern myth.
How old do you think the universe is?
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, that's interesting ... because it's impossible to prove that the history of life on earth is the result of evolution.

I suggest you've fallen victim to Darwinist propaganda (which is ubiquitous) and a modern myth.
I’d like to stay at my LCMS church instead of going back to Catholicism but this whole thing about evolution and age of the earth bothers me so much.
 
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
How old do you think the universe is?
I'm not a YEC. I accept the scientific evidence that suggests the universe is billions of years old and that life on earth began perhaps billions of years ago, as simple life-forms that became more complex and diverse over time.

Despite what evolutionary scientists (most of whom are very biased atheists who have an agenda) say, no one can prove what process was responsible for the history of life on earth - no one can even prove that that history was a contiguous process of biological evolution.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not a YEC. I accept the scientific evidence that suggests the universe is billions of years old and that life on earth began perhaps billions of years ago, as simple life-forms that became more complex and diverse over time.
.
That’s what I think I believe, too.
 
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
I’d like to stay at my LCMS church instead of going back to Catholicism but this whole thing about evolution and age of the earth bothers me so much.
I am Catholic and what bothers me is that most of the Church's leaders have swallowed Darwinism hook, line and sinker. Such is the power of Darwinist propaganda to deceive.

The danger of Darwinism is that it (falsely) claims that science has established that life on earth is purely the result of biological mechanisms ... therefore there was no need for a Creator God. In my opinion, that is a Satanic lie, the aim of which is to promote atheism.

Indeed, William Provine said, "Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented."
 
Upvote 0

Buzzard3

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2022
1,526
229
64
Forster
✟52,601.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
That’s what I think I believe, too.
It's entirely possible to believe in an old earth and old life on earth without believing in Darwinian evolution.

I don't have any theory about how God shaped the history of life on earth - I'm happy to accept it as a divine mystery.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
4,285
1,960
64
St. Louis
✟440,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's entirely possible to believe in an old earth and old life on earth without believing in Darwinian evolution.

I don't have any theory about how God shaped the history of life on earth - I'm happy to accept it as a divine mystery.
What’s the difference between believing in an old earth (and old life on earth) and believing in Darwinian evolution?
 
Upvote 0