Old covenant--> New covenant

31gH9N.9.

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The OT Law was given to reveal what sin is (Romans 3:20), without the Law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), so when Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, then it is fairly straightforward that the Law is how they knew what actions were sins they should be repenting of doing. This means that repenting from our disobedience to the OT Law is an integral part of the Gospel message and that the relationship between the two is no mystery.

So what is included in the OT law that Christians are required to follow and observe and what isn't. What I'm trying to say is that the Old Covenant commanded things like circumsizing your children and sacrificing animals for sin atonement, and having a levitical priesthood to attend priestly elements. Are these things not done away with? And if they truly are not then a good chunk of the new testament is actually a lie. And if they are done away with, then how exactly do we know what has changed and what hasn't.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Steve.

Here is the verse that I asked you to interpret.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Your interpretation of this verse follows.
The New Covenant is God's laws written on the heart (Jeremiah 31:33.) This is what God wanted from the beginning:

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart." (Deuteronomy 6:5–6)
You quoted directly from the written law, you quoted directly from the written law of the old covenant.

Even though Paul distinctly stated, this new covenant was not of the letter but of the Spirit. Yet your interpretation ignored what Paul said. Your quotation from Deuteronomy is the law, that is the written law.

We are servants of the Spirit and not servants of the written law. Paul states in no uncertain terms that the written law kills.

Faith and love, not faith and written law.
 
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Soyeong

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So what is included in the OT law that Christians are required to follow and observe and what isn't.

The biggest area of disagreement is in regard to following ceremonial laws, such as keeping God's Sabbath, keeping God's other holy days, and keeping kosher. As I pointed out with 1 Peter 1:13-16 and 1 Peter 2:9-10, we are told to have a holy conduct, and the ceremonial laws are God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct. The phrase "to be holy for God is holy" is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving those instructions, such as Leviticus 11:44-45, where refraining from eating unclean animals is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. It is also relatively straightforward that having a holy conduct involves keeping God's holy days. Furthermore, it is not about act like Jews, about about acting according to the holiness of our God.

What I'm trying to say is that the Old Covenant commanded things like circumsizing your children

In regard to understanding circumcision, it is critically important to make the distinction between what God required and what man required. For example, in Acts 15:1, the Pharisees were wanting to required all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. However, nowhere does God's Law require this, and furthermore God did not even require Jews to become circumcised in order to become saved, though He did require Jews to become circumcised as a sign of the Abrahamic covenant. Likewise, the law mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles is not found anywhere in God's Law, so it is therefore also a man-made requirement, which means that things being discussed in Acts 15:1-11 were in regard to following man-made traditions, though it was nevertheless how the Pharisees thought that the Mosaic Law should be obeyed. So by rejecting this man-made requirement, the Jerusalem Council was upholding God's Law. Furthermore, the Jerusalem Council did not had more authority than God, so they could not countermand any of His commands and it would have been a sin in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 for them to tell Gentiles not to obey any of them. We must obey God rather than man, so if you nevertheless think that God required all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved and that the Jerusalem Council ruled against obeying what God commanded, then you should follow God instead of them, but again, they never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands.

and sacrificing animals for sin atonement, and having a levitical priesthood to attend priestly elements. Are these things not done away with?

In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite Vow, which involves making offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for the offerings of others who had taken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against obeying the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. So offerings did not stop with the death and resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophecies a time when a third and fourth temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 40-46).

And if they truly are not then a good chunk of the new testament is actually a lie.

Again, there is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, so we must be careful not to take something that was only against obeying the laws of men as being against obeying the laws of the God that we serve, and when we are careful to do this, then we will see that the Bible does not speak against anyone obeying any of God's commands. For example, I have commonly seen Galatians 4:9-11 used to argue against keeping God's holy days, but if you read verse 8, you will see that Paul was addressing these verses to those who were former pagans. This means that they were not formerly obeying God's holy days and therefore could not be returning to keeping them. Paul likewise would not have referred to the holy, righteous, and good Law of God as weak and miserable principles of the world, but rather than is how he referred to man-made teachings, so whatever Paul was referring to them returning to in verse 10 is in the context of paganism, not in regard to obeying God's Law. In Galatians 2:11-14, we have another example where people commonly use to show that Peter was not eating kosher, but what they happened to be eating was never even mentioned as was not even relevant to what was happening. Peter was simply obeying the man-made law mentioned in Acts 10:28 when he stopped visiting or associating with Gentiles, so the way that we have been taught to interpret the NT has systematically taken what was only against obeying man's laws and twisted it to being against obeying the God that we serve. God's Law was given for our own good as instructions for how to live in a way where we will prosper and be blessed (Deuteronomy 6:24), which are not too difficult for us (Deuteronomy 30:11-14, Romans 10:5-10), but instead of considering it by faith to be a delight as it was intended (Romans 7:22), we have consider it to be a heavy burden that no one could bear.

And if they are done away with, then how exactly do we know what has changed and what hasn't.

If taking a particular action was acting in accordance with God's righteousness before Christ came, but now that he has come that is no longer the case, or vice versa, then God's righteousness has changed, but God's righteousness is eternal and does not change, and the same can be said for the way to act in accordance with God's other attributes. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so it is not the case that God's laws have changed, but it is the case that the circumstances under which they apply have changed. For example, laws in regard to temple practice can only apply when there is a temple in which to practice them. Other laws were meant to instruct how Israel as a nation was to be governed, so things can become tricky in regard to how we should live when we are citizens of a different nation that has its own laws. So understanding how God's Law applies to us today is a matter of careful study, prayer, and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
 
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31gH9N.9.

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If taking a particular action was acting in accordance with God's righteousness before Christ came, but now that he has come that is no longer the case, or vice versa, then God's righteousness has changed, but God's righteousness is eternal and does not change, and the same can be said for the way to act in accordance with God's other attributes. All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so it is not the case that God's laws have changed, but it is the case that the circumstances under which they apply have changed. For example, laws in regard to temple practice can only apply when there is a temple in which to practice them. Other laws were meant to instruct how Israel as a nation was to be governed, so things can become tricky in regard to how we should live when we are citizens of a different nation that has its own laws. So understanding how God's Law applies to us today is a matter of careful study, prayer, and guidance of the Holy Spirit

How does all that fit into place with the scriptures in the NT that state there is a change in law. The verses from 1 Peter that you quoted from even state that believers are a "royal priesthood", which as far as I can understand is different than what the law of Moses says about the strictly Levitical priesthood. Hebrew 7:12 states that "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law."
 
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Steve Petersen

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How does all that fit into place with the scriptures in the NT that state there is a change in law. The verses from 1 Peter that you quoted from even state that believers are a "royal priesthood", which as far as I can understand is different than what the law of Moses says about the strictly Levitical priesthood. Hebrew 7:12 states that "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law."

Jesus has become a priest in the heavenly Temple. That is the change.
 
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Soyeong

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How does all that fit into place with the scriptures in the NT that state there is a change in law. The verses from 1 Peter that you quoted from even state that believers are a "royal priesthood", which as far as I can understand is different than what the law of Moses says about the strictly Levitical priesthood. Hebrew 7:12 states that "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law."

The word can and I think should be translated as "transition" rather than as "change". Neither the Levitical priesthood nor that commands that God gave to institute it were being altered, but rather the context is speaking about a transition of the Levitical priesthood to the priesthood of Melchizedek, which would not require God's attributes or the way to according to God's attributes to be altered, but would require a transition in the administration of the Law to go along with it.
 
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31gH9N.9.

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The word can and I think should be translated as "transition" rather than as "change". Neither the Levitical priesthood nor that commands that God gave to institute it were being altered, but rather the context is speaking about a transition of the Levitical priesthood to the priesthood of Melchizedek, which would not require God's attributes or the way to according to God's attributes to be altered, but would require a transition in the administration of the Law to go along with it.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying here. It still sounds like a change in the law, at least on the standard of priesthood. Not furthur along in the scripture it seems to use even stronger in language when its says,
" For verily there is a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." - Hebrews 7:18
And Later at the end of chapter 8
" In that he saith, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" - Hebrews 8: 13

I totally get what you're saying though about it seems that the commands of God in the Old covenant make it wrong to believe in such a thing, and it doesn't really seem to be taught in any of Jesus' teachings from His earthly ministry. He does talk of a new covenant, but also states that anyone who disregards or teaches men to disregard any of the law and the profits will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. The Old testament speaks of this new covenant but I don't know of a place where it says that it would be according to different laws, but rather the law would be in the hearts (maybe referring to being in contrast with the laws that were written on stones).
 
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31gH9N.9.

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The biggest area of disagreement is in regard to following ceremonial laws, such as keeping God's Sabbath, keeping God's other holy days, and keeping kosher. As I pointed out with 1 Peter 1:13-16 and 1 Peter 2:9-10, we are told to have a holy conduct, and the ceremonial laws are God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct. The phrase "to be holy for God is holy" is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving those instructions, such as Leviticus 11:44-45, where refraining from eating unclean animals is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. It is also relatively straightforward that having a holy conduct involves keeping God's holy days. Furthermore, it is not about act like Jews, about about acting according to the holiness of our God.

Would keeping the Passover be a requirement for Christians then? And if so then would that require that Christians be circumcised?
 
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Aseyesee

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Lamb can also be infected with trichinae by feeding on infected pasture.

I worked as a meat cutter for many years and can attest that pork, mostly the loin chops, often smelled like manure. I quickly lost my appetite for pork chops.

Tapeworms, Toxins and More: The Truth about Your Pork

Side note ... interesting that God would make something unclean in the first place, and then call it not only good, but very good ...
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Side note ... interesting that God would make something unclean in the first place, and then call it not only good, but very good ...

God allowed man to eat virtually any animal after the flood, but later placed restrictions on Israel only.

Most 'unclean' animals are 'ritually' or 'ceremonially' unclean, not actually unclean. Even 'clean' animal flesh can make us sick if not handled properly. People the world over eat 'unclean' animals with no bad effects (usually).
 
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Aseyesee

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Most 'unclean' animals are 'ritually' or 'ceremonially' unclean, not actually unclean. Even 'clean' animal flesh can make us sick if not handled properly. People the world over eat 'unclean' animals with no bad effects (usually).

People been knowing what to, and not to eat long before Moses came along ...

I think the connection to us, lies in a tree that we eat of.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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People been knowing what to, and not to eat long before Moses came along ...

I think the connection to us, lies in a tree that we eat of.

God, through Moses, codified it.
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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With the requirements fulfilled Jesus, Christians enter a new spiritual economy also mediated and headed by Jesus. But for those who refuse to come to Jesus, preferring the taste of the "Old Wine," they remain under the auspices of the Old Covenant and are subject to the curses therein (which is not a good place to be).

So, in essence, what Jesus did was to open a hatchway for us to move out from under the Old Covenant and into the New;

Jesus is The Door into all that is promised of God. He came to fulfill The Law, being the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. Being truly In Christ is observing/keeping passover and feasts...we being God's temple, not made with human hands, his dwelling place in the New Covenant.

Our spiritual journey/process of soul taking place within is summed up in the Old Testament experiences of Israel...blessings, curses and wanderings, Temple worship and entering into the Holy of Holies...Promised Land. When we first come to Christ, it can be likened to placing our sacrifice on the Brazen Altar of sacrifice for atonement/repentence. The Brazen Laver, washing in the water of The Word (cleansing/purifying(baptizing means this in the Greek) to enter through the veil into the Holy Place to the lamp stand (Light and spirit) and shewbread/bread of life...and on goes the process within through Christ...

Passover sacrifice required any flesh left by morning was to be totally burned up. ( 2 Peter 1:19**Revelation 22:16***) What a picture of the process taking place within! When God saw the blood on the doorposts, "no plague will befall you to destroy you..." ...eating unleavened bread for seven days speaks to the New Creation week...which speaks to our bread of life/toiling in the field for our bread but the promise of entering his (sabbath) rest/we recline at the table and the master serves up the bread/hidden manna which is in the Holy of Holies...which all speaks to losing our soul/life that we find it (again) IN Christ.

Such an amazingly profound plan and purpose The Father has purposed...though what I shared does EDIT: NOT fill in the fullness of the picture HE reveals within us...

**"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

***"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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People been knowing what to, and not to eat long before Moses came along ...

I think the connection to us, lies in a tree that we eat of.

Which all speaks to...Adam had one commandment, "Thou shalt not eat...?" in the beginning. In Christ is the first and last, beginning and the end. First creation/Adam and the Last Adam...The Door (back)...
 
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