Old Catholic?

[Tamaraz]

Hi everyone!

Anyone here go to an "old catholic" church? What is the relationship between Old Catholics and Anglican/Episcopalian? Are there any significant differences in theology/belief/practice at this point?

THANKS!

Tamaraz

 

[Paidiske]

Hi Tamaraz!

@kiwimac is Old Catholic, I believe. He might be able to tell you more than I can.

But basically, there is full communion between the Old Catholics (Union of Utrecht) and the global Anglican communion (Anglicans in communion with Canterbury).

I'm not sure about significant differences. My understanding is that Old Catholics broke away from Rome after Vatican I, specifically rejecting the doctrine of papal infallibility. But I don't think they necessarily embrace the Reformation principles which are a core part of Anglican identity as expressed in the 39 Articles of Religion; so for example, I would expect Old Catholics to be more comfortable with prayer through Mary and the saints and so forth.

But that is not my area of expertise, and others may be able to tell you more.

 

[kiwimac]

It depends on the OC church. The Polish National Church is very conservative while others are extra liberal. Let me show you what I mean. Here are a statement of the ACI (Anglican Church International) which is the OC church in which I am priested.

The ACI is a radically inclusive denomination. Our creator calls every person to turn to God's embrace; to find safety, love, and acceptance. The ACI supports the freedom of every human being to respond to the call of a loving God. We affirm a theology that is life giving and enhancing, rather than one that is shaming, rejecting, or oppressive and punitive The ACI seeks, with God's help to be a safe harbor, a community of light that offers God's grace and Christ's love to all who would receive it. We actively seek out those who are on; left behind or cast out by other denominations, institutions, or systems; those who have been discriminated against, or have not felt truly at home in other denominations. Some of these are the poor, social outcasts, gay men and lesbians, racial minorities, the young and old, people with broken relationships, women, trans-gendered persons, bi-sexual persons, those abused or neglected in any way, those questioning their sexuality, those dealing with mental or physical challenges, the sick and dying, and all those seeking to love God and their neighbor as themselves.

 

[PloverWing]

Let me show you what I mean. Here are a statement of the ACI (Anglican Church International) which is the OC church in which I am priested.

How amazingly wonderful. I had no idea Old Catholics were like this. Maybe the word "Old" in the name threw me off. Your ACI quote summarizes almost exactly the calling I see for the church in the 21st century. The Episcopal Church takes baby steps in this direction ("The Episcopal Church welcomes you" is on our signs), but your church is putting this radical hospitality in the center of its mission. Wow.

Pardon a stupid question, but does your church's radical inclusiveness mean that you ordain women and LGBT people to the priesthood and also welcome them into lay leadership positions?

 

[Albion]

Hi everyone!

Anyone here go to an "old catholic" church? What is the relationship between Old Catholics and Anglican/Episcopalian? Are there any significant differences in theology/belief/practice at this point?

THANKS!

Tamaraz

The official Old Catholics (i.e. the Union of Utrecht) and the Anglican Communion have an intercommunion agreement stretching back about 85 years, although in practice it doesn't seem to mean much. However, most of the churches that call themselves Old Catholic are not part of the Union of Utrecht but are just tiny jurisdictions, sometimes almost the proverbial one-man bands you hear about. The Anglican Church International, for example, reports one chapel with presiding bishop, one other clergyman in the USA, and our colleague, Kiwimac, in New Zealand.

In the USA, there are many churches that identify as Old Catholic, but none are recognized by the Union of Utrecht. There is one possible exception--a tiny and relatively new one that is claiming some sort of recognition but that is about all I know of them. The well-known and respected Polish National Catholic Church WAS a member but withdrew in protest over the Uofu's decision to ordain women priests.

And now for the big question...what do they believe? Generally speaking, they carry on the Roman Catholic style of worship and doctrines except for recognizing the Papacy. That said, though, most of them have adopted the liberal demands of our age that Rome has yet to agree to. Women clergy have already been mentioned. Most jurisdictions are also gay-friendly and affirming. And just about any New Age theology, reincarnation, or other things in that vein can be found among these Old Catholic bodies.

 

[Paidiske]

So is or is not the Anglican Church International in communion with Canterbury? Google's not helping me much here...

 

[Arcangl86]

So is or is not the Anglican Church International in communion with Canterbury? Google's not helping me much here...

No. There are no Anglophone Old Catholic Churches in the Union of Utrecht and only the churches of the Union of Utrecht are in communion with the Anglican Communion.

 

[Albion]

So is or is not the Anglican Church International in communion with Canterbury? Google's not helping me much here...

No. It is not in communion with the Union of Utrecht, with Canterbury, or with any of the usual Continuing Anglican churches. And despite the name, it considers itself to be Old Catholic rather than Anglican.

 

[kiwimac]

How amazingly wonderful. I had no idea Old Catholics were like this. Maybe the word "Old" in the name threw me off. Your ACI quote summarizes almost exactly the calling I see for the church in the 21st century. The Episcopal Church takes baby steps in this direction ("The Episcopal Church welcomes you" is on our signs), but your church is putting this radical hospitality in the center of its mission. Wow.

Pardon a stupid question, but does your church's radical inclusiveness mean that you ordain women and LGBT people to the priesthood and also welcome them into lay leadership positions?

Yes, it does.

 

[kiwimac]

The ACi is a very small group but then so are the Quakers and groups like them which have had an influence all out of proportion to their numbers. I personally am also liaison for the Reorganised Orthodox Old Catholic church which is somewhat larger (their name in NZ is Te Hāhi Katorika Tawhito.) As for why, I grew very tired of waiting for the Anglican church to grow up.

 

[No Swansong]

This has been an interesting discussion. I am an Old Catholic Presbyter. There are a few of us small American jurisdictions in informal (a first step we hope) discussions with the Union of Utrecht. We have no idea if this will even lead to a formal discussion but we are hopeful. I am hesitant to share more info including my specific jurisdiction due to privacy issues but let us hope that we eventually are able to bring about at least some small reunification within the body of Christ. Personally, there is an Old Catholic priest from another jurisdiction who serves as my confessor and I have been invited to concelebrate with a continuing Anglican priest.

 

[FireDragon76]

Years ago I attended a church similar to what Kiwimac was talking about, though our church was descended from Bishop Carlos Duarte Costa. It was much more explicitly catholic in its theology, except for the fact the pastor/bishop and deacons were gay. The denomination generally tracked liberal Catholic theology, including our social ethics. The congregation collected money and supplies for the local crisis pregnancy ministry, but we also believed that abortion should be safe and legal. And we also allowed people who were remarried to receive communion.

It's not easy having a church like that because people typically drift in and out of that and the leadership are, with all respects, typically little more than vagantes. But sometimes that's all some people have.

I never felt completely comfortable with the church, particularly the bishop, who had a strong personality (and at the time, that bothered me a great deal, esp. the vulnerable place I was coming from. And the fact one of our favorite deacons left with no explanation), yet I still felt quite sad years ago when I discovered the small little church had shut down. Perhaps the bishop died, he had poor health and was constantly in the hospital. They met in a small United Church of Christ building here in Orlando. It's the one church I really miss at times. There was something beautiful there in a little church that was mostly made of outcasts that I have never found again.

In Europe there are churches in the Netherlands and Germany that are actually part of the Union of Utrecht, but that's a bit of a different fish altogether. Their theology is distinct from Roman Catholicism, they reject the First Vatican Council, the condignity of merits, and a bunch of other doctrines. They are more like the Orthodox doctrinally, though typically they are on the liberal end of the spectrum and they do ordain women and gay people.

 

[Arcangl86]

I really think if there was a canonical Old Catholic jurisdiction in the US I would probably be Old Catholic.

 

[No Swansong]

I really think if there was a canonical Old Catholic jurisdiction in the US I would probably be Old Catholic.

Canonical in what manner my friend?

 

[Arcangl86]

Canonical in what manner my friend?

A member of the Union of Utrecht probably. It needs to be something bigger then just a micro denomination here in the US.

 

[Shane R]

Here in the US we have the Union of Scranton, which consists of the PNCC and the Nordic Catholic Church. It is the main rival of the Union of Utrecht. It is conservative and the continuing Anglican churches are attempting to create a bridge with those folks. Some continuing bishops can claim the Hodur line in their apostolic succession. This will no doubt be helpful in ongoing dialogue with PNCC.

Unfortunately, as Albion mentioned, the Old Catholic presence in the US is largely little paper groups lacking sustainable parishes and real Gospel ministry. They are characterized by Vagante bishops who will ordain most anyone who comes calling, and usually consecrate them as a fellow bishop as well. Their patriarchates/eparchies/churches or whatever they choose to call them are always extremely top-heavy.

 

[No Swansong]

Here in the US we have the Union of Scranton, which consists of the PNCC and the Nordic Catholic Church. It is the main rival of the Union of Utrecht. It is conservative and the continuing Anglican churches are attempting to create a bridge with those folks. Some continuing bishops can claim the Hodur line in their apostolic succession. This will no doubt be helpful in ongoing dialogue with PNCC.

Unfortunately, as Albion mentioned, the Old Catholic presence in the US is largely little paper groups lacking sustainable parishes and real Gospel ministry. They are characterized by Vagante bishops who will ordain most anyone who comes calling, and usually consecrate them as a fellow bishop as well. Their patriarchates/eparchies/churches or whatever they choose to call them are always extremely top-heavy.

This is unfortunately mostly true, and one of the reasons some of our ministries are attempting to at least share inter-communion with the Union of Utrecht. Without mentioning names there are quite honestly many Vagante Bishops who have no business being ordained or consecrated.

 

[Shane R]

I am to be made a priest next week. After that I will be moving North into an area with PNCC presence. My Bp. informed me the other day that he is going to supply me with a letter of introduction and I will have his permission to say Mass in PNCC churches, at the discretion of the Ordinary of course.

 

[Albion]

Congratulations to you, Shane!

 

[gordonhooker]

I am to be made a priest next week. After that I will be moving North into an area with PNCC presence. My Bp. informed me the other day that he is going to supply me with a letter of introduction and I will have his permission to say Mass in PNCC churches, at the discretion of the Ordinary of course.

Good on you Shane. I wish you well in the great adventure that lies ahead.