Okay I have just had an interesting but maybe fallible thought.

[HannahBanana]

You won't win any awards for good logic with that statement.

Engaging in homosexual acts is a CHOICE. A choice condemned by both the Old and New Testaments.

Infertile women do not choose to be infertile. It is a physical condition they are afflicted with, which is why so many of them go to medical doctors in hopes their problem can be corrected.

So you honestly think that there is no such thing as abstinence in the homosexual community? You think that all gays have sex? What about people like me? I'm bisexual, yet I've never had sex before. So what "homosexual acts" have I engaged in?

 

[HannahBanana]

Not only is the Bible clear about the fact that homosexuality (by which I mean the practice of homosexual sex) is a sin, it also says that homosexuality is a judgment in and of itself.

Paul told us in the book of Romans that because people knew God but did not honor Him as God, God gave them over to their own lusts so that they would be dishonored in their bodies:

Romans 1:21-32
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
​

So, there is absolutely no need for Christians to attempt to heap condemnation on the heads of homosexuals. They are already receiving the just punishment.

We need to show them how they can be saved. And watch ourselves, lest we fall into the same error.

You do realize that your entire post there was a great example of "heaping condemnation on homosexuals," don't you?

 

[HannahBanana]

I think C.S. Lewis says some good points about this matter *goes and grabs "meer Christainity"

"When a man says about something he wants to do, 'It can't be wrong because it doesn't do anyone else any harm'..... He is thinking it does not matter what his ship is like inside provided that he does not run into the next ship....... What good is telling the ships how to steer so as to avoid collisions if, in fact, they are such crazy old tubs that they cannot be steered at all? What good is drawing up, on paper, rules for socail behavor, if we know that, in fact our greed, corardice, ill temper, and self-conceit are going to prevent us from keeping them? [C.S. Lewis, Meer Christainity]


this is why Jesus tells us to clean the INSIDE of a cup and not the outside.... because socail morelity is only the tip of the iceberg. It may not harm anyone else but it harms yourself both in body and soul. And you will edventully cause the entire fleet of humans to steer in the completely wrong direction. What happens if an entire culture considers theivery right behavor? Their actions would never harm any person because they all beleive that theivery is right..... but it still does damage to their souls and spirits.

Seriously, though, what harm does love do? That is all that homosexuality is, is love. So why try to keep people from loving the people whom they're naturally attracted to?

 

[Luther073082]

So you honestly think that there is no such thing as abstinence in the homosexual community? You think that all gays have sex? What about people like me? I'm bisexual, yet I've never had sex before. So what "homosexual acts" have I engaged in?

Well I will give you that if you don't participate in homosexual acts you are not in sin. God does not condemn people for being homosexual, he only does for acting on it.

I think its a major error to teach that its wrong just to "be homosexual or bisexual"

 

[dluvs2trvl]

How is that a totally different situation, though?

In case you didn't read it the first time - here is the rest of my post:

You know what - it is not a fallacious argument and I'm pretty tired of seeing all the posts in here saying that it is...

No matter the amount of medical procedures done, medical intervention tried or prayers offered up two penises having sex with each other CANNOT EVER biologically reproduce...just as two vaginas having sex with each other CANNOT EVER biologically reproduce.

God created reproduction to happen between a MAN and a WOMAN. That is why our genders have specific body parts created to fit together - one with an egg and one with sperm - that is how reproduction happens.

Yes, there are heterosexual couples that cannot reproduce. However that is a totally different situation and has absolutely NO bearing whatsoever on the discussion of homosexuality.

The fact that a heterosexual couple cannot have children is a medical issue - they have the biological resources to have children and are equipped with the right body parts that fit together but there may be a medical reason why it isn't happening.

However, in the case of homosexuals - they are not biologically equipped to have children TOGETHER - it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to biologically reproduce together as a couple - two sperm CANNOT create a child just as tow eggs CANNOT create a child.

 

[HannahBanana]

Well I will give you that if you don't participate in homosexual acts you are not in sin. God does not condemn people for being homosexual, he only does for acting on it.

I think its a major error to teach that its wrong just to "be homosexual or bisexual"

Well, I'm glad that you can recognize the difference between "homosexuality" and "homosexual sex." Seems like that's a distinction that many people cannot seem to wrap their heads around.

 

[HannahBanana]

In case you didn't read it the first time - here is the rest of my post:

The fact that a heterosexual couple cannot have children is a medical issue - they have the biological resources to have children and are equipped with the right body parts that fit together but there may be a medical reason why it isn't happening.

However, in the case of homosexuals - they are not biologically equipped to have children TOGETHER - it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to biologically reproduce together as a couple - two sperm CANNOT create a child just as tow eggs CANNOT create a child.

So you honestly think that life is just about reproducing? You think that people cannot live a good, moral, Biblical life without reproducing? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[SonicBOOM]

Seriously, though, what harm does love do? That is all that homosexuality is, is love. So why try to keep people from loving the people whom they're naturally attracted to?

we only say this because we've all agreed on a course of action as a human race. "Homosexaulity does not do harm" but this could be said of any number of things. Like I said, what if a culture were to say "lying is not wrong". than we would not harm anyone by lying because we all beleive and agree that lying is not wrong. This is why "it doens't harm anyone" doesn't work because it doesn't matter if you don't collide into your fellow man.... what path is humanity AS A WHOLE heading? Thats what matters. Thats why we gotta depend on a law written by those smarter than us. The bible says that homosexaulity is wrong. Why is this? I'm not sure..... but all i know is that God is smarter than i am and he knows whats best for humanity. the reason why we're not colliding is because we all agree on a course and a direction, but is this the right course and direction?

 

[Christian Soldier]

And no, the APA is not a biased source, so don't try to say that it is.

Oh really?! You're sure of that? Let's look at the FACTS:

TAKEOVER AT THE APA

"By a vote of its House of Delegates, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of disordered conditions in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the bible of the profession. The change came about not because of new research. Scientists had made no groundbreaking discoveries. No, the change because of a political coup engineered by homosexual activists, a process documented by pro-gay writer Ronald Bayer.18

Dr. Charles Socarides, a practicing psychiatrist who witnessed events at APA conventions, including threats of violence by homosexual activists, said, "The APA could only take the action it did by disregarding and dismissing hundreds of psychiatric and psychoanalytic research papers and reports that had been done on homosexuality over the previous two decades."19 In 1974, the American Psychological Association followed suit under similar conditions. Meanwhile, under pressure from homosexual activists, states had already begun dropping laws against sodomy, thus paving the way for the free-wheeling, promiscuous "gay" scene that homosexual writer Randy Shilts chronicled as the prelude to the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s.20

Shortly thereafter, the term "sexual preference" began to give way to "sexual orientation" in homosexual publications and then in the psychiatric and psychological literature. In fact, it began to turn up everywhere, from magazines to school policy proposals. A seemingly innocuous phrase to describe everybody’s sexual roadmap, "sexual orientation" is much more than that. The preceding historical overview was intended to show that the term did not appear in a vacuum but was instead a key and deliberate step in an unfolding process of securing social, political and economic support for homosexuality."

http://www.cultureandfamily.org/articledisplay.asp?id=2927&department=CFI&categoryid=papers

 

[dluvs2trvl]

So you honestly think that life is just about reproducing? You think that people cannot live a good, moral, Biblical life without reproducing? Am I understanding you correctly?

LOL! No you are not understanding me correctly...and I will not engage in an argument with you again SoAmazinglyBlessed.

I explained in my first post that I was tired of seeing posts in this thread saying that reproduction was no argument at all against homosexuality. I went on to state in another post that I don't believe it is the only argument against it either. But I'm tired of people comparing a heterosexual couples inability to have a child as the same as a homosexual couple not being able to have a child.

 

[HannahBanana]

we only say this because we've all agreed on a course of action as a human race. "Homosexaulity does not do harm" but this could be said of any number of things. Like I said, what if a culture were to say "lying is not wrong". than we would not harm anyone by lying because we all beleive and agree that lying is not wrong. This is why "it doens't harm anyone" doesn't work because it doesn't matter if you don't collide into your fellow man.... what path is humanity AS A WHOLE heading? Thats what matters. Thats why we gotta depend on a law written by those smarter than us. The bible says that homosexaulity is wrong. Why is this? I'm not sure..... but all i know is that God is smarter than i am and he knows whats best for humanity. the reason why we're not colliding is because we all agree on a course and a direction, but is this the right course and direction?

You do realize that the Bible was written by men, rather than by God, don't you?

 

[Luther073082]

Well, I'm glad that you can recognize the difference between "homosexuality" and "homosexual sex." Seems like that's a distinction that many people cannot seem to wrap their heads around.

Not making that distinction is taking liberties with the scripture.

You can't add things to scripture, nor can you subtract them.

Its highly illogical to belive that "homosexuality is a choice." First and foremost because I can tell you as a heterosexual that I did not choose to be heterosexual. I like women, I find them physically attractive and I want to have sex with them.

I do not find men physically attractive and am repulsed by sexual contact with them.

That was not a choice, it simply turned out that way.

And honestly, choosing homosexuality as a belief is about as logical as believing the diciples went to painful and horrible deaths willingly for a lie. No one in their right mind would choose to be homosexual.

You do realize that the Bible was written by men, rather than by God, don't you?

On that premise we disagree. God wrote it through men.

 

[HannahBanana]

Oh really?! You're sure of that? Let's look at the FACTS:

TAKEOVER AT THE APA

"By a vote of its House of Delegates, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of disordered conditions in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the bible of the profession. The change came about not because of new research. Scientists had made no groundbreaking discoveries. No, the change because of a political coup engineered by homosexual activists, a process documented by pro-gay writer Ronald Bayer.18

Dr. Charles Socarides, a practicing psychiatrist who witnessed events at APA conventions, including threats of violence by homosexual activists, said, "The APA could only take the action it did by disregarding and dismissing hundreds of psychiatric and psychoanalytic research papers and reports that had been done on homosexuality over the previous two decades."19 In 1974, the American Psychological Association followed suit under similar conditions. Meanwhile, under pressure from homosexual activists, states had already begun dropping laws against sodomy, thus paving the way for the free-wheeling, promiscuous "gay" scene that homosexual writer Randy Shilts chronicled as the prelude to the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s.20

Shortly thereafter, the term "sexual preference" began to give way to "sexual orientation" in homosexual publications and then in the psychiatric and psychological literature. In fact, it began to turn up everywhere, from magazines to school policy proposals. A seemingly innocuous phrase to describe everybody’s sexual roadmap, "sexual orientation" is much more than that. The preceding historical overview was intended to show that the term did not appear in a vacuum but was instead a key and deliberate step in an unfolding process of securing social, political and economic support for homosexuality."

http://www.cultureandfamily.org/articledisplay.asp?id=2927&department=CFI&categoryid=papers

From CultureandFamily.org's "About CWA" section:

CWA is built on prayer and action.

We are the nation's largest public policy women's organization with a rich 29-year history of helping our members across the country bring Biblical principles into all levels of public policy.

How exactly is that not a biased site?

 

[SonicBOOM]

You do realize that the Bible was written by men, rather than by God, don't you?

than what do we depend on? Because culture seems to change morels to fit the seasons. Do we care enough about right behavor to do what is inconveint to us?

As for the bible being written by men.... thats not what the bible claims, it claims that the bible was written by men but inspiried by God. My theology proffessor at college said it this way "The bible is like Jesus divinity, it's 100% man and 100% God".

 

[HannahBanana]

On that premise we disagree. God wrote it through men.

So you're saying that God took away Free Will when those men wrote the Bible? You're saying that they were incapable of adding their own words into it?

 

[HannahBanana]

than what do we depend on? Because culture seems to change morels to fit the seasons. Do we care enough about right behavor to do what is inconveint to us?

As for the bible being written by men.... thats not what the bible claims, it claims that the bible was written by men but inspiried by God. My theology proffessor at college said it this way "The bible is like Jesus divinity, it's 100% man and 100% God".

So you think that human beings are completely inable of being moral without following the Bible? If so, then how do you explain the fact that atheists don't go around killing people? Many atheists are actually kind-hearted, loving, caring people, yet they don't follow the Bible.

And are you saying that the men who wrote the Bible didn't have any Free Will at all? Are you saying that there is zero chance that they could have added their own words into it when they wrote it?

 

[Tinkerbell33]

From Chapter III Section D of "The moral and theological beliefs of Kirk (aka Luther073082)

[/FONT]

Thank you, that was really helpful and informative.

 

[SonicBOOM]

So you think that human beings are completely inable of being moral without following the Bible? If so, then how do you explain the fact that atheists don't go around killing people? Many atheists are actually kind-hearted, loving, caring people, yet they don't follow the Bible.

it's neither left or right, it's more like a scale of 1-100. I beleive humans are capable of not reaching 0 without God.... but they aren't capable of a perfect 100 without God.

And are you saying that the men who wrote the Bible didn't have any Free Will at all? Are you saying that there is zero chance that they could have added their own words into it when they wrote it?

of course there's gonna be some of man's marks within the bible, my college proffessor's favorite hobby was to sniff those things out. But what I'm saying is that the bible is not 50% man and 50% God. It's 100% man and 100% God. How can this be? It's a mystery.... much like Jesus divinity.

 

[Tinkerbell33]

and thanks chris for the excerpt from Mere Christianity.

 

[Christian Soldier]

From CultureandFamily.org's "About CWA" section: How exactly is that not a biased site?

Your complete inability to present any documentation to refute the CWA's well-documented article has been noted.

Merely declaring someone or something to be "biased", does not negate their documented arguments.

It's obvious you're biased in favor of homosexuality. Using your own logic, we shouldn't believe anything you say because you're biased in favor of a certain position.

That's where DOCUMENTATION comes in, which is what the article I posted is. Let the official record indicate that I've presented documentation that you've thus far been unable to refute.