• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

ok, question, again

ScottsWife

Crazy Cat Lady
Jul 1, 2010
132
7
in the middle of nowhere, Indiana
✟22,797.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Someone on here sent me a link to some videos they posted on here, and my dial up just takes tooooo long.... I wish I could see them.

Scott wants to know why the Orthodox Church left the Catholic Church. [Can you tell he is Catholic?? jk]

We have struggled so much to find a home church over the last few years that we decided to figure out which is the closest to the original church in the Bible.....everyone claims to be that, so we are going to have to go by proven history. It's so confusing. I really really like what I have been reading about Orthodoxy...more so than the RCC (to be honest)...but its not about what I like...it's about what is correct in God's eyes. I'm not looking for a religion to "suit my own needs and attractions."
 

RobNJ

So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish!
Aug 22, 2004
12,075
3,310
✟181,532.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Scott wants to know why the Orthodox Church left the Catholic Church. [Can you tell he is Catholic?? jk]

Five equal Patriarchs, ONE goes off & starts saying HE'S the boss over all & changing how things are done. Rome left The Orthodox Church, NOT the other way around.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JESUS<3sYOU
Upvote 0

ScottsWife

Crazy Cat Lady
Jul 1, 2010
132
7
in the middle of nowhere, Indiana
✟22,797.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Five equal Patriarchs, ONE goes off & starts saying HE'S the boss over all & changing how things are done. Rome left The Orthodox Church, NOT the other way around.

I promise I'm not trying to be a pain, but is there any official document that you can refer me to of that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sphinx777
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,514
New York
✟227,464.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
By the 8th century an enstrangement began taking place between the western half of the roman empire which spoke latin and the eastern half which spoke greek. As islamic expansion weakened the eastern fringes of the empire , the roman pope began looking less and less towards the eastern half of the empire for support, instead engaging westward for political and military support, especially during Charlemagne's reign. At this time certain erroneus forgeries became popular the most notable being the 'Donation of Constantine" which claimed the emperor Constantine gave authority over the entire empire to the roman pope.

Over time the roman/byzantine emperor had to look towards the pope with his newly established ties for military help against the muslims. In turn this made the pope demand more sovereignty over the eastern church in return for his cooperation. By the time of the crusades, certain far-western heresies entered the roman church such as the fillioque clause first promoted in spain, purgatory and azymes(unleavened wafers), etc etc. By 1009 a.d the popes name was dropped from the dyptichs from all eastern churches (diptych is greek for 'double fold', basically 2 tablets attached by a hinge). Communication was still common, hence why scholars put the schism at 1054, others prefer to put it at 1204 during the ransacking of Constantinople by the 4th crusade. Regardless many attempts at reconcilliation occured and failed. History shows that Rome departed from both apostolic belief and proper church governance. The canons and dogmas of the church make this clear.

Definition of the diptych courtesy of wiki:

The term refers to official lists of the living and departed that are commemorated by the local church. The living would be inscribed on one wing of the diptych, and the departed on the other. The inscribing of a bishop's name in the diptychs means that the local church considers itself to be in communion with him, the removal of a bishop's name would indicate breaking communion with him.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
It was Cardinal Humbert who slapped a bull of Excommunication down on the alter of the Hagia Sophia during Divine Liturgy (even though Pope Leo, who sent him had reposed, ending his authority as a legate) and refused to reconsider his act even when a Deacon came out, begging him.

It seems rather clear to me.
 
Upvote 0

88Devin07

Orthodox Catholic Church
Feb 2, 2005
8,981
164
✟32,447.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
It was Cardinal Humbert who slapped a bull of Excommunication down on the alter of the Hagia Sophia during Divine Liturgy (even though Pope Leo, who sent him had reposed, ending his authority as a legate) and refused to reconsider his act even when a Deacon came out, begging him.

It seems rather clear to me.

Your point being? It doesn't matter who was excommunicated first, the Roman Church was the one who departed from the Orthodox faith, and hence, from the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church...
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It was Cardinal Humbert who slapped a bull of Excommunication down on the alter of the Hagia Sophia during Divine Liturgy (even though Pope Leo, who sent him had reposed, ending his authority as a legate) and refused to reconsider his act even when a Deacon came out, begging him.

It seems rather clear to me.

Yes, this arrogant act of Humbert showed a total disregard for the Divine Liturgy where we are taken up into heaven to worship the King of King and Lord of Lords together with the angels and the cloud of witnesses (Martyrs and Saints).

This was, indeed, a sad day. Lord have mercy.
 
Upvote 0

Macarius

Progressive Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2007
3,263
771
The Ivory Tower
✟97,122.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Orthodox Church ceased full intercommunion with the Roman Catholic Church because of the RCC's demand that we adopt their system of church government and their version of the creed - this was a violation of Holy Tradition (to demand this of us), and so we refused and mutual excommunications were upheld. The history is much, much more messy than that, but that is the essence of it.

The issue really comes down to this: is the Papacy meant to be the juridical head of the Church?

I stress "juridical" because both East and West agree that the Papacy's role includes that of strong leadership - that Rome had traditionally been the Christian see of highest rank and importance. We tend to see this as a sort of "senate majority leader" ; one who leads from within and alongside (not OVER) the others. Furthermore, breaking rank on a particular issue with the senate majority leader may be unwise, but it hardly gets one kicked out of the senate. Each senatory, essentially, still has their one vote. The RCC, at the time of the schism, was describing the Papacy as a sort of super-monarch - literal RULER of both Church and State. I would refer you to Dictatus Papae, by Gregory Hildebrand, as an extreme example of this kind of rhetoric. Though not dogmatic in the RCC today, Dictatus Papae was representative of the general attitude of the Popes in the 11th - 13th c. (sometimes called the "imperial" papacy because of its active attempts to oversee the political life of Europe, including directing military action). There seems to be in mind here an almost theocratic feudal system, with the Pope at the top and the Kings on the political side, the Bishops on the Ecclesiastical side. You can see this by the Pope's claimed right to both appoint and dethrone kings and emperors (as well as bishops) during this time period.

Needless to say, that was not the model we'd known in the East, and we were not about to aquiesce to it just on the Pope's say so.

Furthermore, this wasn't the model of the early chuch; historians have vindicated the East on this point. If you go back to the earliest sources there isn't even evidence of there BEING a single bishop in Rome until the late 2nd century (150 - 180 AD). It can hardly be APOSTOLIC tradition (something completely binding on the entire church and worth excommunicating half of Christendom over) for the bishop of Rome to be fully in charge of the Church and State if the first 130-odd years didn't even HAVE a bishop of Rome.

Furthermore, once there was a monarchial bishop, there is no evidence of seeing this bishop as a unique successor of Peter until the late 3rd century. There is no known claim to overt Papal authority until the late 4th century (when Rome's political status as a city had begun to decline - that's when it starts to claim more ecclesiastical authority). It wasn't until the 5th c. that there was a Pope who actively claimed (as a significant element of his theology) authority over the other hierarchs - Pope St. Leo the Great in the 450's. Even then, if you go and look at the history, Pope St. Leo never had real, active authority outside of Italy with the exception of a few areas of southern France and Macedonia (northern Greece).

In the late fourth century, 381 AD, we find the first example of council and Pope in conflict. The Second Ecumenical Council, which upheld the Trinity against neo-Arian heretics, also recognized the growth of Constantinople in importance within the empire and granted it "Second Rank" but with "Equal Rights" to Rome (as a court of ecclesiastical appeal). Rome denied this, while accepting the rest of the council. It, however, became de-facto reality. Rome didn't recognize the canon until it had sacked Constantinople in 1204 AD (900 years later) and placed its own docile, pupet Patriarch on the ecclesiastical throne there. In that intermin 900 years Constantinople was the 2nd see of Christendom - 2nd to Rome in rank, but equal in rights. The council had operated against the Pope, saw nothing wrong with this, and the bulk of the church agreed.

In the fifth century, at Ephesus, the decisions of a local Roman council against Nestorius were not upheld as "de-facto" correct by virtue of Rome's opinion. Rather, the 3rd ecumenical council considered the matter for itself. It considered itself to have sufficient authority to overturn Rome's (and Alexandria's) decision if it chose to. The same happened in the mid-fifth century at the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon, where, despite St. Leo's papal-legates demanding an immediate acceptance of his "Tome" on the meaning of the Incarnation, the council deliberated over the text with the full assumption of its right to disagree and overturn St. Leo's views. In the end, both councils did accept the same decision as the Pope (just like at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15), but their very method reveals their mind.

Things didn't turn out as rosy at the 5th and 6th ecumenical councils. In both, the Pope was directly censured and forced to relent. In the 5th, a still living Pope Vigilus (who directly argued against even calling the council) was declared a heretic by the council for refusing to condemn key Nestorian writings, and relented after being placed under house-arrest in Constantinople (not the most polite of councils...). The 6th ecumenical council post-humously declared Pope Honorius a heretic for actively teaching (if not inventing) the monothelite heresy (the doctrine of one "will" - a teaching of Honorius that built on an attempt to reunite with the Coptic church by describing Christ as possessed of a single "energy"; Honorius was the first to suggest expanding this to mean a single "will").

In short, the Popes were clearly (functionally) under the ultimate authority of an ecumenical council. Apart from such extreme examples, the church de-facto goverened itself in a decentralized way during this first millenium. There just wasn't any sense of papal infallibility (I challenge one to find even an inlking of this before the 7th c. AD), or real / functional papal centralism of the type the West tried to force down the East's throat in 1054 AD.

In the 9th and 10th c. (800 - 900) the Frankish and Germanic empires in Northern Europe hijacked the papacy and episcopate in the West through lay investiture and simony. During this time countless forgeries were circulated defending a central role for the papacy in church and state. Most notable were the Donation of Constantine and the Decretals of Pseudo-Isidore. These documents became the foundations of Western revisions of canon law during the Clunaic monastic revival of the 900's and the later Papal Reform movement of the 1000's AD.

In other words, the Papacy's actions in the 11th century, at the time of the schism, were unprecedented in scope and based on fake history. They were not Holy Tradition, and they have not been repented of to this day - rather they have been compounded by doctrines like Papal Infallibility and the militant Papacy of the Crusades and the 1400's. We see no reason to support such a thing, especially given the incredible division it has caused in the West (the Reformation and all that).

Incidently, during the 1400's, it was a Church council that solved (by the exercise of its own self-claimed authority) the Great Papal Schism. This council deposed Popes and antiPopes and selected a replacement single Pope. Even in the West, when push came to shove, the Councils still could throw their weight around.

Now, we don't believe that councils have any de-facto authority. There are plenty of fake councils. But we also certainly don't hang our entire hat on ONE see being authentically orthodox the way the RCC does on the Papacy.

What would you do if the Pope was teaching heresy? Where would the Church be if the Pope began to excommunicate people who didn't agree with his heresy? This is what the East feels happened to it - at that point, the Pope ceased to be orthodox; he fell into a heresy he remains in to this day. We lament it, but we will not shy away from its implications nor bow to it in the name of ecumenical good feelings. Please forgive us if that offends - we cannot do otherwise in good faith.

In Christ,
Macarius
 
  • Like
Reactions: MariaRegina
Upvote 0

ScottsWife

Crazy Cat Lady
Jul 1, 2010
132
7
in the middle of nowhere, Indiana
✟22,797.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
By the 8th century an enstrangement began taking place between the western half of the roman empire which spoke latin and the eastern half which spoke greek. As islamic expansion weakened the eastern fringes of the empire , the roman pope began looking less and less towards the eastern half of the empire for support, instead engaging westward for political and military support, especially during Charlemagne's reign. At this time certain erroneus forgeries became popular the most notable being the 'Donation of Constantine" which claimed the emperor Constantine gave authority over the entire empire to the roman pope.

Over time the roman/byzantine emperor had to look towards the pope with his newly established ties for military help against the muslims. In turn this made the pope demand more sovereignty over the eastern church in return for his cooperation. By the time of the crusades, certain far-western heresies entered the roman church such as the fillioque clause first promoted in spain, purgatory and azymes(unleavened wafers), etc etc. By 1009 a.d the popes name was dropped from the dyptichs from all eastern churches (diptych is greek for 'double fold', basically 2 tablets attached by a hinge). Communication was still common, hence why scholars put the schism at 1054, others prefer to put it at 1204 during the ransacking of Constantinople by the 4th crusade. Regardless many attempts at reconcilliation occured and failed. History shows that Rome departed from both apostolic belief and proper church governance. The canons and dogmas of the church make this clear.

Definition of the diptych courtesy of wiki:

The term refers to official lists of the living and departed that are commemorated by the local church. The living would be inscribed on one wing of the diptych, and the departed on the other. The inscribing of a bishop's name in the diptychs means that the local church considers itself to be in communion with him, the removal of a bishop's name would indicate breaking communion with him.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I really appreciate all the responses, but this one had the details I need.

I've been reading on different sides about the Great Schism, but every site either has an Orthodox stance or an RCC stance.... or they use language that I need a dictionary to understand...and by the time I look up the meaning of the words, then I lose my concentration lol. Some of this stuff is so new to me, that I have to read it several times...and I'm a rather intelligent person lol. I have many more questions that my husband and I came up with, but I don't know if I should post them here or in a new thread....
 
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,584
5,381
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟517,338.00
Country
Montenegro
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If the explanation were simple the schism would have quickly been resolved.

I'll say that for me, anyway, the problems of the Orthodox Church (the complaints brought against it) are ones based on human behavior within the structure; it could be said (by Catholics) to be a result of a lack of Papal authority. The problems of the Catholic Church are based on its very structure - and are a result of Papal authority. The nature of the Crusades, indulgences, the conduct of the Inquisition are directly traceable to that form of central temporal leadership (I need not reference general corruption, for there is no historical church that is free of that).

The OC avoids both the dangers of anarchy in Protestantism and the dangers of centralized power in Catholicism. No one man can lead the whole Church wrong - not even the EP. I think it nothing short of miraculous that an institution like the OC could maintain, over space and time and without the centralized authority of the CC, an unparalleled unity of doctrine. Even the Catholics don't have it - although they have more (unity) than any other representation of Christianity. Put simply, the Catholics have external unity (structure) and internal division (doctrine). The Orthodox have external - apparent - disunity of structure and internal unity of doctrine - which by all logic it shouldn't have been able to maintain over two thousand years, and across the planet.

For me, Vatican 2 (and especially the change in fasting for the laity) is a good example of imposition of human authority on universal practice. At least, in the OC, I know that I don't live up to the fasting practices of the Church. In the CC, I wouldn't know it, because the bar has been so drastically lowered. I'd think (in the Lewisian sense) that I was O.K. (That's a drop in the bucket, but a significant one.)
 
Upvote 0

ScottsWife

Crazy Cat Lady
Jul 1, 2010
132
7
in the middle of nowhere, Indiana
✟22,797.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I've just been reading so much information, that I'm already falling in love with the OC and I have never even attended one lol....I just hope that hubby agrees...and does not have up his CC wall that he tends to have.
 
Upvote 0

laconicstudent

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2009
11,671
720
✟16,224.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Your point being? It doesn't matter who was excommunicated first, the Roman Church was the one who departed from the Orthodox faith, and hence, from the Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church...

I was just thinking that Humbert's actions highlight that fact.
 
Upvote 0

ScottsWife

Crazy Cat Lady
Jul 1, 2010
132
7
in the middle of nowhere, Indiana
✟22,797.00
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I was just thinking that Humbert's actions highlight that fact.


Ok...I'm confused... who was excommunicated first and who is Humbert?

I was on some site (I've been to so many now in the past week that I can't remember exactly which one it was ) but I remember reading about the bull thing for excommunication, but I was so lost in trying to understand what I was reading that I could not figure out who was Orthodox and who was RC.... I kind of felt stupid lol
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Furthermore, this wasn't the model of the early chuch; historians have vindicated the East on this point. If you go back to the earliest sources there isn't even evidence of there BEING a single bishop in Rome until the late 2nd century (150 - 180 AD). It can hardly be APOSTOLIC tradition (something completely binding on the entire church and worth excommunicating half of Christendom over) for the bishop of Rome to be fully in charge of the Church and State if the first 130-odd years didn't even HAVE a bishop of Rome.
Have you ever noticed that every Greek Orthodox Church has a huge chair located on the right hand side of the solea which is reserved for the Bishop?

In the Ancient Church, first there were the Apostolic Bishops, then we find in Acts that Deacons were ordained to help the widows and orphans, and finally Priests were ordained to assist the Bishops. In fact, at first every parish was headed by a Bishop, and when these Apostolic Bishops went on a mission, they ordained and left behind Bishops to rule over each parish. A Bishop was called the overseer. Later on large dioceses were developed where the Bishop appointed a Priest to be in charge of each parish and to assist him.

So, yes, in Ancient Rome there was a Bishop ordained and consecrated to be in charge of each parish. This custom continues today where each new Cardinal is given a titular parish in Rome.

In the ancient church, the "Pope" was the Metropolitan or "Senate leader" of the local Bishops in Rome. And so there arose Metropolitans in each major city: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, who were the original five Patriarchs. In fact, the title "Pope" is not exclusive to Rome, as the Patriarch of Alexandria is still called "Pope."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
24,822
16,173
60
Sydney, Straya
✟1,564,923.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Ok...I'm confused... who was excommunicated first and who is Humbert?

I was on some site (I've been to so many now in the past week that I can't remember exactly which one it was ) but I remember reading about the bull thing for excommunication, but I was so lost in trying to understand what I was reading that I could not figure out who was Orthodox and who was RC.... I kind of felt stupid lol
Cardinal Humbert (Umberto) was a friend of Pope Leo IX, and was accompanied by Cardinal Frederick (who would later become Pope Stephen IX (X)) and Archbishop Peter of Amalfi as legates of the Pope to Constantinople. Though they were welcomed by the emperor, Patriarch Michael refused to speak with them, and eventually Cardinal Humbert placed the papal bull, excommunicating Michael and those who agreed with him, on the altar of Haghia Sophia. The bull was a litany of false accusations, the text of which can be found HERE. A council was then held in Constantinople which excommunicated the three papal legates.

There is a lot more background to this, such as the Norman conquest of lands in Southern Italy which were under Byzantine control. The Normans had forced Latin customs onto the mainly Greek churches and monasteries in that region which had prompted Patriarch Michael to close the Latin churches in Constantinople in response. While the Pope was not responsible for the forcing of Latin customs on those Greek churches, the Roman Church had long sought control of those regions and had demanded their return several times in the past. Thus from the viewpoint of Constantinople, Rome was taking what it had been demanding all along.

There has been some question as to whether the Bull of Excommunication was valid, since Pope Leo IX had actually died prior to Humbert producing it, but the fact remains that all of the subsequent popes considered it valid, particularly Pope Stephen IX (X) who had formerly been one of the three legates who issued the bull in the first place.

John
 
Upvote 0

Qoheleth

Byzantine Catholic
Jul 8, 2004
2,702
142
✟26,372.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I really appreciate all the responses, but this one had the details I need.

I've been reading on different sides about the Great Schism, but every site either has an Orthodox stance or an RCC stance.... or they use language that I need a dictionary to understand...and by the time I look up the meaning of the words, then I lose my concentration lol. Some of this stuff is so new to me, that I have to read it several times...and I'm a rather intelligent person lol. I have many more questions that my husband and I came up with, but I don't know if I should post them here or in a new thread....


An objective Orthodox perspective...

Ecumenism today: the universal ... - Google Books


Q
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,514
New York
✟227,464.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Last edited:
Upvote 0