OK…I want numbers. What is the probability the universe is the result of chance?

Halbhh

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hedrick

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Incidentally, for your amusement, here is my argument for God's existence based on evolution.

We know that humans were able to evolve in a few billion years. While we don't know exactly where the universe came from, most people think it came out of a process of some sort that creates universes. While it's very hard to imagine the kind of environment out of which universes are created, it seems likely that it would have sufficient resources to support a lifeform, although one that would be very different than ours.

The current universe has existed for finite time, but it seems likely that the ultimate environment out of which universes come has always been here. Infinity has very odd properties. Let's guess that if it took a few billion years for humans to evolve, it might take a few trillion or quadrillion for life to develop in this environment that creates universes. But that's no problem. The mathematics of infinity are very odd.

Suppose it would take N quadrillion years for a being to evolve in that environment. Pick a time T. Any time T. Because this meta-universe is infinite, the meta-universe already existed at T - N. So by time T it has existed for at least N quadrillion years, in which case the being has had time to evolve. But there was nothing specific about time T. So despite the fact that we assume the being evolved, at any time T he already existed. I.e. he is eternal. (The argument also doesn't depend upon the exact value of N, just that it is finite.)

Now I claim that an eternal being existing in an environment from which universes are born can reasonably be considered to match our usual understanding of God, quod erat demonstrandum.

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How seriously do I take this? I'm not sure. I think as long as there is a system out of which universes come, and it has always existed, there's a lot to be said for it. Both of those conditions seem likely, though we certainly don't know that they're true.
 
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The Barbarian

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But your initial response did not make me think you were a believer in God. I had to check your religious affliation in order to know that. My point here is that you should have said, “I do not think this is a good argument for God, I prefer this one instead.”

A bad argument is just a bad argument. My faith in God is hardly a secret here; I deplore false arguments for God, precisely because I love and follow Him to the best of my ability.

God is truth. Make sure you use truth to praise and preach Him.
 
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stevevw

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Im gonna quote Oxford University and Nobel prize winner, and mathematical physicist Roger Penrose:
“Try to imagine phase space… of the entire universe. Each point in this phase space represents a different possible way that the universe might have started off. We are to picture the Creator, armed with a ‘pin’ — which is to be placed at some point in phase space… Each different positioning of the pin provides a different universe. Now the accuracy that is needed for the Creator’s aim depends on the entropy of the universe that is thereby created. It would be relatively ‘easy’ to produce a high entropy universe, since then there would be a large volume of the phase space available for the pin to hit. But in order to start off the universe in a state of low entropy — so that there will indeed be a second law of thermodynamics — the Creator must aim for a much tinier volume of the phase space. How tiny would this region be, in order that a universe closely resembling the one in which we actually live would be the result?”

“His calculations lead him to the remarkable conclusion that the ‘Creator’s aim’ must have been accurate to 1 part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power or 123, that is 1 followed by 10 to the 123rd power zeros.”

As Penrose puts it, that is a “number which it would be impossible to write out in the usual decimal way, because even if you were able to put a zero on every particle in the universe, there would not even be enough particles to do the job.”

And the only alternative to the universe arising from chance is for it to have arisen deliberately. Deliberate action requires a conscious creator aka God.
Actually there is another idea that is proposed that scientists have used to counter the finely tuned universe and that is the multiverse. So our precise universe is just one of many that have varying physics. There may be other universes that have slighly different outcomes that still produced life and there may be another you and me living a slighly different life. There may be universes with hostile conditions and still others where there is just darkness and relatively nothing.

How are these extraordinary numbers to be explained? The most popular explanation and the one that appeals to Dawkins, is the ‘multiverse’. The idea here is that, unbeknown to us, there are other universes, all slightly different, so that it becomes more likely that in that number, a universe like ours might exist. Davies wrote, “The multiverse theory seeks to replace the appearance of design by the hand of chance.”[9]
Fine Tuning the Multiverse Theory

I have always maintained that if one can propose a multivers then why not a creative agent who set the controls for our universe and therefore there is only one universe which happens to be finely tuned for intelligent life to ponder how they ended up being in such a finely tuned universe. It seems far more a simpler explanation and makes more sense. NB both ideas can never be scientifically verified.
 
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hedrick

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NB both ideas can never be scientifically verified.
That's not clear. Specific models that imply multiple universes might make predictions about those universes that can be tested. There might also be influences between "nearby" universes that could be detected.
 
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Jipsah

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What they maybe terrified of are people that base their behavior based on what their version of God expects of them.
As opposed to people who base their behavior on their own emotional state at any given time. No potential problems there, nosirree!

Unlike dragons events like 9/11 can ruin your day.
Like everything else, events Just Happen.
 
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East of Eden

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You understand that is your perspective of it ? If they are atheists they are as terrified of idea of god then they are of dragons attacking them when they go jogging.

Yet they post thousands of times on religion forums. The reason is, Jesus said when He is lifted up, "I will draw all men to myself".

What they maybe terrified of are people that base their behavior based on what their version of God expects of them.

Unlike dragons events like 9/11 can ruin your day.

Atheistic regimes murdered more than all other religions combined.
 
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East of Eden

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As opposed to people who base their behavior on their own emotional state at any given time. No potential problems there, nosirree!

Exactly, take God of of the picture and it comes down to personal preference. I don't understand how an atheist even thinks in moral terms, a dead universe doesn't care.
 
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The Barbarian

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Jonathan Walkerin said:
What they maybe terrified of are people that base their behavior based on what their version of God expects of them.

Unlike dragons events like 9/11 can ruin your day.

Atheistic regimes murdered more than all other religions combined.

9/11 was committed by religious men who thought the God Who spoke to Abraham wanted them to do it.
 
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East of Eden

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9/11 was committed by religious men who thought the God Who spoke to Abraham wanted them to do it.

Which has what do do with Christianity? You're dodging my point about 100,000,000 atheist murders. And I reject your premise that the Moon god of Islam is the same as Jehovah in the OT.
 
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The Barbarian

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Which has what do do with Christianity?

Like other cults who ignore the One merciful and loving God and focus on who they want to go to Hell, they have little or nothing to do with the things Jesus taught us.

They don't have much to do with Islam, either; the Koran condemns the killing of innocents, and most strongly against the killing of women and children.

But there have been those who considered themselves the Christian warriors of God, killing his supposed enemies, just as there have been Muslims doing so.

Must have been a grim revelation when they came face to face with Him.
 
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