Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

[LewisWildermuth]

Lewis, I stated that that was not my list. There were some things in there that I just left in there because I didn't feel like taking it out.

Yasic, he never said your statement was a half-truth. Please go back up and read his post. He merely pointed out that you used that term.

So you do agree that who ever added that to the list lied. Well then I think that the point has been made.

 

[yasic]

Lewis, I stated that that was not my list. There were some things in there that I just left in there because I didn't feel like taking it out.

Yasic, he never said your statement was a half-truth. Please go back up and read his post. He merely pointed out that you used that term.

Gotcha, when he said hypocritical term, I did not realize he literally was talking about the term, instead of me.

 

[yasic]

QV Post 2 --- what is a "truth" in the first place - (whole, half, or quarter)? And why are atheists even typing that word?

My name on here is 'yasic'

That is a truth. Not all atheists do drugs or drink heavily, that is a lie. Do you not agree with this?

 

[Kyrisch]

Creationists stumble through the dark room until they find the light switch. Clinging blissfully thereto, they announce they have found the light. A scientist will flick the switch, realise it doesn't work, and make progress to fix the wiring while the Creationist sits there in the dark, stagnating with broken light switch in hand because they are satisfied with what they have and no empirical evidence will convince them to the contrary that a light switch means light. When the scientist accomplishes the task, the light will flicker on and the Creationist will claim that they had found it years before and had had it all along.

That is the difference.

 

[AV1611VET]

So AV, where does the Bible say that the 2nd LoTD started after the fall?

Four verses in Romans 8 ---

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

That word creature means all of God's creation --- animate and inanimate.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

What is vanity here? Entropy.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

What is the bondage of corruption here? Entropy.

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why is the whole universe groaning and travailing in pain? Because entropy is universal.

"Corruption" is equivalent to "decay," and this is yet another way of stating the entropy principle. Everything tends to decay, running down from a created state of organized complexity to one of randomness and disorganized chaos. This law is thus called a "bondage;" the universe is enslaved by it, and there is no natural principle available to supersede it. Such a law is clearly the exact converse of the notion of evolution, which views the universe as gradually organizing itself over long ages by natural processes into its present state of high complexity and activity. The entropy law, which is supported without exception by all observation and scientific study, seems to stipulate that evolution on any significant scale is impossible. It also explains the fact that evolution has never been observed to occur in the present and the fact that there is no evidence it ever occurred in the past.

 

[AV1611VET]

My name on here is 'yasic'

That is a truth. Not all atheists do drugs or drink heavily, that is a lie. Do you not agree with this?

Hey --- I'm not the one who claims there is no such thing as "truth." In fact, Christianity got started on what is called "infallible proofs," something I'm sure is anathema to scientists.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Four verses in Romans 8 ---That word creature means all of God's creation --- animate and inanimate.What is vanity here? Entropy.What is the bondage of corruption here? Entropy.Why is the whole universe groaning and travailing in pain? Because entropy is universal.

And all this has what to do with the movement of energy in a closed system?

Again it seems that not only are you making stuff up about the Bible, you are making stuff up about what the 2nd LoTD states to.

What did I just say about fantasy not being evidence?

 

[corvus_corax]

First off Shicoco, are you a creationist? a YEC?

I don't consider myself a Creationist, because I do not think it makes sense to make a science out of something that is illogical.

This thread is directed at creationists

How is it we (non YEC Creationists) are lied to?

(parenthetical addition mine)

This thread is directed at creationists

Is it just me or is Shicoco (an admitted non-Creationist) missing the point here?

 

[Shicoco]

Creationists stumble through the dark room until they find the light switch. Clinging blissfully thereto, they announce they have found the light. A scientist will flick the switch, realise it doesn't work, and make progress to fix the wiring while the Creationist sits there in the dark, stagnating with broken light switch in hand because they are satisfied with what they have and no empirical evidence will convince them to the contrary that a light switch means light. When the scientist accomplishes the task, the light will flicker on and the Creationist will claim that they had found it years before and had had it all along.

That is the difference.

This is biased in these ways:

1. It does not tell how the scientist got to the light switch, but it does for the Christian.

2. The light wasn't broken for the Christian (or rather the condition was omitted), but it was for the scientist, until afterwards, making the scientist look good

Frankly, someone could create a statement like this and make the scientist look bad. Please, don't be biased. If it's not objective, don't put it on here.

I have nothing wrong with science, furthermore, this thread is not about this.

Most Christians don't hate science. If it weren't for science, I would not have this computer in front of me.

Corvus: "We" was referring to Christians, not Creationists. I thought he was saying Christians were lied to. Also, while I don't consider myself a Creationist, I do believe in it, and take their side in debates. Also, this post of yours is guilty of the ad hominem fallacy. In case you are unsure of what this is, it's where you attack a person instead of the argument. I'm sorry I made a minor error. Please don't capitalize on it. Stick to the argument

 

[Tomk80]

Lewis, I stated that that was not my list. There were some things in there that I just left in there because I didn't feel like taking it out.

So you knew it was incorrect but were to lazy to take the argument out? Help me understand your reasoning here. Because the way I see it, every time you perpetuate a statement that you know is incorrect, or have grave suspicions is incorrect, you are in fact perpetuating a lie.

 

[Kyrisch]

This is biased in these ways:

1. It does not tell how the scientist got to the light switch, but it does for the Christian.

2. The light wasn't broken for the Christian (or rather the condition was omitted), but it was for the scientist, until afterwards, making the scientist look good

The point is the Creationist never checked the condition of the light, paralleling the fact that the Bible-thumper does not question the condition or validity of that which he holds unquestionably true.

Also, it was just a metaphor. It wasn't intended to be refuted point by point.

 

[biggles53]

The OP was specifically addressing Creationism, rather than religions generally.

In that sense, what was said is true. Creationists regularly lie, and are lied to, to bolster their beliefs in fantasy.

And, in an ultimate display of intellectual cowardice, when enough evidence is finally presented to counter the bogus 'science' they attempt to offer, they withdraw to the empty contention that "god must have magicked it".

How lame. How juvenile.

 

[AV1611VET]

The OP was specifically addressing Creationism, rather than religions generally.

The OP made a rookie mistake that apparently no one but a creationist caught. Not bad for being "lied to and liars," are we?

 

[biggles53]

To continue my point, the biggest liars in creationism are those at the 'top'. People like Hovind et al. Nice to see that he's receiving his just desserts, by the way.

This can probably be seen most clearly through the statement of Henry Morris, when he said (paraphrasing) 'If there is a contradiction found between scripture and observational reality, then scripture MUST be favoured'!

Think about that. This incredibly stupid piece of advice says that what you see, hear, taste, smell, etc ISN'T REAL if it disagrees with the diseased ramblings of 3000 year old desert-dwelling goat herders, whose assertions are supported by NO observations of reality whatsoever....!

Amazing...just goes to show the extremes that blind fear will produce.

 

[AV1611VET]

To continue my point, the biggest liars in creationism are those at the 'top'.

That door swings both ways:

 

[corvus_corax]

That door swings both ways:

Are you saying that the Allen Telescope Array and LHC are lies, or founded by/run by/promoted by liars?

Im sure Im not seeing your point *confused*

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you saying that the Allen Telescope Array and LHC are lies, or founded by/run by/promoted by liars?

Im sure Im not seeing your point *confused*

I'm saying that S.E.T.I. scientists got our government to stick their hands in our pockets and fund their junk science, until the government woke up and put a stop to it.

But let the church ask the government to fund one of their projects, like a womans' shelter, and look out --- people scream "separation of church and state!"

And do you know why the Superconductor Semicollider was primarily built?

 

[biggles53]

Are you saying that the Allen Telescope Array and LHC are lies, or founded by/run by/promoted by liars?

Im sure Im not seeing your point *confused*

The interesting thing, Corvus, is that he agrees that creationism is based on lies - he simply (erroneously) tries to lump science in with it.

 

[Cabal]

Four verses in Romans 8 ---That word creature means all of God's creation --- animate and inanimate.What is vanity here? Entropy.What is the bondage of corruption here? Entropy.Why is the whole universe groaning and travailing in pain? Because entropy is universal.

O RLY???

And yet you tell off TEs for reading too much into Genesis. Gotcha.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The Second Law of Thermodynamics was set in motion in Genesis 3 - after the Fall.

False.

Evolution, which is a form of sun worship,

False.

says that the sun provides the energy needed to keep life going on this planet.

If it were possible to switch off the Sun, life would end pretty quick.

Yet, for some inexplicable reason, this supposedly life-sustaining aten cannot prevent death from occurring, nor can it bring the dead back alive.

Gasoline provides the energy to keep a car going, yet, for some reason, this supposedly car-sustaining liquid cannot prevent breakdowns from occurring.

I know AV has me on ignore -- now everyone can see why.

No, the Second Law cannot prevent microevolution from occurring, but, sans divine intervention, will shut down the primary god that evolution worships.

False.

Has it occurred to you that in Eternity Future there will be no need of the sun?

Has it occurred to you that you're fast approaching dad on the gibberish-o-meter?