Oh Hell

Espada · Feb 21, 2006

visionary said:
Greek word "Hades" literally meant unseen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

Don't rely on Wikipedia.

UBS Dictionary:

The world of the dead; death; perhaps hell, the place of final punishment

Basicaly Hades is the Greek equivalent of Sheol.

plum · Feb 22, 2006

Victrixa said:
So there's no 'hell', such as a place of eternal suffering?

I personally think there is an eternal punishment. It's very clear that this is the place made for demons and HaSatan after the end times sequence... however, I don't think the dead go there right away only to be brought out for the judgment day that would make no sense! i think that there has to be some other explanation than the normal "when you die, you immediately go to heaven or hell" teaching.

visionary · Feb 22, 2006

missju said:
I personally think there is an eternal punishment. It's very clear that this is the place made for demons and HaSatan after the end times sequence... however, I don't think the dead go there right away only to be brought out for the judgment day that would make no sense! i think that there has to be some other explanation than the normal "when you die, you immediately go to heaven or hell" teaching.

I agree besides everything I have studied so far indicates that while the punishment (eternal fires) burn forever, those that are punished do not, and just like satan will eventually turn to ashes. It probably takes satan and his cohorts longer. After all satan use to walk amongst the firy stones.

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Just make sure that your sanctuary (your body - the temple of God) is not the sanctuary which satan has defiled.

Victrixa · Feb 22, 2006

Visionary,

So, Satan and the 'damned' (the lost souls) will be destroyed forever?

DanielRB · Feb 23, 2006

Shalom all,

Thanks for all of your research, Visionary.

I think most verses about "hell" can be explained in terms of annihilation, save one:

"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”" (Revelation 14:9-11, ESV)

"They have no rest" to me indicates an eternal state of concious suffering. It also specifically indicates that those who receive the mark of the beast would be in this state--not satan and his angels. Could you please address this verse?

In Messiah,

Daniel

visionary · Feb 23, 2006

DanielRB said:
Shalom all,

Thanks for all of your research, Visionary.

I think most verses about "hell" can be explained in terms of annihilation, save one:

"They have no rest" to me indicates an eternal state of concious suffering. It also specifically indicates that those who receive the mark of the beast would be in this state--not satan and his angels. Could you please address this verse?

In Messiah,

Daniel

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

"Second death," which is used four times in Scripture to refer to the Lake of Fire (hell):

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death." (Revelation 2:11)

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

Death is the end of life.

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire

I think the big hang up comes from forever and ever.....

forever and ever.....aionas ton aionon.....ages of the ages

In apocryphal books, sinners are consumed as in the Old Testament. Tobit (about 200 B.C.), for example, describes the end time, saying: "All the children of Israel that are delivered in those days, remembering God in truth, shall be gathered together and come to Jerusalem and they shall dwell in the land of Abraham with security . . . and they that do sin and unrighteousness shall cease from all earth" (Tob 14:6-8). The same view is expressed in Sirach, called also Ecclesiasticus (about 195-171 B.C.) which speaks of "the glowing fire" in which the wicked will "be devoured" and "find destruction" (Eccl 36:7-10).

The Sibylline Oracles, a composite work, the core of which comes from a Jewish author of perhaps the second century B. C., describes how God will carry out the total destruction of the wicked: "And He shall burn the whole earth, and consume the whole race of men . . . and there shall be sooty dust" (Sib. Or. 4:76). The Psalms of Solomon, most likely composed by Hasidic Jews in the middle of the first century B. C., anticipates a time when the wicked will vanish from the earth, never to be remembered: "The destruction of the sinner is forever, and he shall not be remembered, when the righteous is visited. This is the portion of sinners for ever" (Ps. Sol. 3:11-12).

The Damascus Document, an important Dead Sea Scroll, describes the end of sinners by comparing their fate to that of the antediluvians who perished in the Flood and of the unfaithful Israelites who fell in the wilderness. Gods punishment of sinners leaves "no remnant remaining of them or survivor (CD 2, 6, 7). They will be "as though they had not been" (CD 2, 20). The same view is expressed in another scroll, the Manual of Discipline which speaks of the "extermination" of the men of Belial (Satan) by means of "eternal fire" (1QS 2, 4-8).20

I well imagine that being burned up gives no one any rest, but at a certain point, there is no more to burn, for fire consumes and leaves ashes. Just as Sodom and Gomorrah eternal fires are called eternal fires, they burn, give no rest to those being consumed, and then leave ashes when it is over, that is it. That is the second death.

DanielRB · Feb 23, 2006

Shalom, and thanks for your reply, Visionary

I well imagine that being burned up gives no one any rest, but at a certain point, there is no more to burn, for fire consumes and leaves ashes. Just as Sodom and Gomorrah eternal fires are called eternal fires, they burn, give no rest to those being consumed, and then leave ashes when it is over, that is it. That is the second death.

How long does it take to consume a body? The "day and night" implies a period of over 12 hours, at least. It seems to me that if cast into a lake of fire, a human body will take minutes--if not seconds--to expire. Perhaps the total destruction of the body takes a bit longer, but the "rest" from the pain would take a very short time. Once the nerve endings are burded off, a body won't feel pain--and death will come rapidly.

Perhaps a resurrected body could last longer in fire--but now we're engaging in speculation to say how long the resurrected body of an unredeemed person would feel pain in the lake of fire.

In Messiah,

Daniel

visionary · Feb 23, 2006

Personally, I think about the story that Yeshua told about Lazaurus in Abraham's bosom and the rich man in torment and the folowing conversation.

First question... Is this a real event that will occur/has occurred?

Second question... If it is a real event that Yeshua is descibing, when will it, did it occur?

Most people take that Yeshua was just giving an illustration, but this story is different than the others, in that he gives the man character of his story a name.

So I am going with a literal event just for the sake of illustration here. If Yeshua was fortelling an event that is to take place when, where, and how did it come about?

First... When.... There is only one time when the two are close enough together to have this conversation.

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So now you have the setting for the story to unfold.... Re- read the conversation now. In the story you have the explaination of "too late".

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You may want to go to the verse just before that and say what about this...

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

For the sake of brevity ...when are we carried off by angels ... at the second coming and what was in Abraham's bosom.... the City of God, the promised land.

When we go from one concept to another, the transition is hard. In this story Yeshua is talking to the Pharisees. So not to get into a big debate on various detractors in doctrine with the Pharisees, Yeshua has chosen to focus His story on the end result. Here we are now trying to make doctrine from it.

visionary · Feb 23, 2006

Victrixa said:
Visionary,

So, Satan and the 'damned' (the lost souls) will be destroyed forever?

Yep, it is will rest with your soul and concept of our loving Heavenly Father a lot better than God being one for burning living people forever.

Catholics have done a good job of convincing the world that their version is the truth, and most people have bought into that story. Fire and damnation salvation recruitment campaigns never changed the heart of the sinner.

plum · Feb 23, 2006

DanielRB said:
Shalom, and thanks for your reply, Visionary

How long does it take to consume a body? The "day and night" implies a period of over 12 hours, at least. It seems to me that if cast into a lake of fire, a human body will take minutes--if not seconds--to expire. Perhaps the total destruction of the body takes a bit longer, but the "rest" from the pain would take a very short time. Once the nerve endings are burded off, a body won't feel pain--and death will come rapidly.

Perhaps a resurrected body could last longer in fire--but now we're engaging in speculation to say how long the resurrected body of an unredeemed person would feel pain in the lake of fire.

In Messiah,

Daniel

honestly, this seems like a strange question. do demons have bodies? if not, how will they burn in torment? i think this eternal fire of damnation has to have a spiritual aspect, not just a physical one... perhaps that's not what you were suggesting, but i wasn't sure.

DanielRB · Feb 23, 2006

missju said:
honestly, this seems like a strange question. do demons have bodies? if not, how will they burn in torment? i think this eternal fire of damnation has to have a spiritual aspect, not just a physical one... perhaps that's not what you were suggesting, but i wasn't sure.

Shalom, Missju,

I agree--it's a strange question. However, if the assertion is that the torment is limited in duration because resurrected bodies (of people, not demons) would eventually be burned up, then how long does it last? If resurrected bodies are similar to our current bodies, then the torment would be very, very short in duration indeed.

As to what could consume demons, I have no idea. If the fire is literal, and if demons have no bodies to be consumed, will their eternal spirits dwell in agony for ever?

In Messiah,

Daniel

stone · Feb 24, 2006

Y-shua was about to heal the crazy man when the demons spoke to him from within. They asked for mercy, they asked to not be sent into the Abyss. They asked to if they could go into the swine, they were allowed to enter the swine, but then the swine killed themselves.

The refferrence to an Abyss, does not sound like the termination of existance.

Also there is a place prepared for the beast and the false prophet, the anti-christ or whatever you want to call it. A beast is released from a pit in the last days, and it will be sent back into this place again for 1000 years, then released again.

This pit, whatever it is, does exist. There is a spiritual realm here within us on earth where the demons and the angels dwell and are able to interact with us humans.

When Y-shua returns, he will defeat this beast that we are unable to defeat.

I see that there are many mistranslations in our books, but there is a place prepared for evil.

I know you guys probably discredit it, but The Book of Enoch speaks of this place prepared for the judgement.

Victrixa said:
What about this Scripture?

Matthew 25 Read This Chapter
25:34 Then the King will say to those on the right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
25:35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
25:36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.'
25:37 "Then these righteous ones will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?
25:38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?
25:39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?' 25:40 And the King will tell them, 'I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, F143 you were doing it to me!'
25:41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons!
25:42 For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me anything to drink.
25:43 I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me no clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.'
25:44 "Then they will reply, 'Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?'
25:45 And he will answer, 'I assure you, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.'
25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

What does it mean if there's no hell, such as a place of eternal damnation for the lost?

These bolded words is Y-shua speaking of what is written in The book of Enoch.

When the swine drowned, the demons would have been released. Y-shua also described how these demons found no rest till they could inhabit a body. From the dead swine the demons would have probably found some catfish and shellfish to inhabit.

I'm finding that there is more to this being clean and unclean than what you eat.

There is probably not a hell as in the fire and the devil with a pointy tail and a pitch fork, but there is a place prepared for sinners that are judged to be evil.

Victrixa · Feb 24, 2006

stone said:
When the swine drowned, the demons would have been released. Y-shua also described how these demons found no rest till they could inhabit a body. From the dead swine the demons would have probably found some catfish and shellfish to inhabit.

I'm finding that there is more to this being clean and unclean than what you eat.

That's a very interesting point! Hmmmmmm....

visionary · Feb 25, 2006

missju said:
honestly, this seems like a strange question. do demons have bodies? if not, how will they burn in torment? i think this eternal fire of damnation has to have a spiritual aspect, not just a physical one... perhaps that's not what you were suggesting, but i wasn't sure.

So we have a burning bush... in this case human torches that do not seem to go out but burn, and suffer from it?

stone · Feb 27, 2006

I've also read something, somewhere in the new testament, that reads that there will be a trial in hell for 10 or 11 days, can't remember if it's 10 or 11, and that there will be a chance for those that are in hell to be saved.

I've been searching for the verse, I'll find it soon and post it here.

Whatever this hell is, it's not a termination of existance.

visionary · Feb 27, 2006

stone said:
I've also read something, somewhere in the new testament, that reads that there will be a trial in hell for 10 or 11 days, can't remember if it's 10 or 11, and that there will be a chance for those that are in hell to be saved.

I've been searching for the verse, I'll find it soon and post it here.

Whatever this hell is, it's not a termination of existance.

I need to see this.

stone · Feb 27, 2006

visionary said:
I need to see this.

I know, I started to search last night, I promise i will find it, i won't leave you hanging.

Lpe04 · Feb 27, 2006

Excellent post! From my studies the Hebrew word "sheol" is derived from the same root word as other words meaning "quietly, rest, prosper, be at ease, to be or have quiet, peace, etc." For instance, the word "shalah" (Strongs number: 7951) and "shalom". The word hell used to be used by potato farmers in Ireland to describe where potatos were buried, in hell, which was a cold, dark place in the ground. Also the Lake of Fire is known as the Second Death in Revelation.

visionary · Feb 28, 2006

Stone, I am still hanging ......

DanielRB · Feb 28, 2006

Shalom all,

I think perhaps the reference to "ten or eleven days" that Stone was thinking of was perhaps this:

"“ ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’" (Revelation 2:9-11, ESV)

Is this it?

In Messiah,

Daniel

Oh Hell

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my thoughts are free

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Dear Lord have mercy on me!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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