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Official CF thread discussing Satanism

Jun 26, 2003
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Good Evening fellow CFers:

There has been a recent discussion in the Forum Questions forum whether we should allow a discussion of Satanism. I originally thought that it was a very bad idea, as Satan is the prince of darkness and the father of lies, this could bring unnecessary confusion to CF. Is this Christian Forums, or satanic forums?

Others have cried foul, when we deleted other threads on satanism. They have said that we, rather I, wasn't being fair to satanists. They believed that they were being unfairly silenced and should be permitted to speak for themselves.

I thought that this was a bad idea, as CF was targeted for attack by certain satanic web sites, and giving free reign to the discussion of satanism would open our members to unecessary harm.

After much thought and parayer, I have decided to give this thread a try. Satanist want the chance to explain that they are not "devil worshippers" and clear up any misconceptions about their religion. This thread is their chance. I will post on what I believe satanism to be, and the satanists can respond and defend themselves. Anyone can respond to this thread, but the opening of new threads will be watched closely by staff, and may be deleted if judged inappropriate.

I ask all parties invlolved to keep this civil. No flames from christians, or accusations of bigotry from satanist supporters will be tolerated. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Now who wants to talk about satanism?
 

Wayfarer

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I will gladly participate, as I realize the Satan they follow is not considered the same as the Satan of the bible. Most Satanists I have met in real life, while not supporting Christianity, certainly weren't anti-Christian (they had 0 prejiduces against me, and we have had great philosophical discussions).

But, I highly doubt this thread will get much interaction as Christians usually aren't very respectful and are very misinformed about them.

I also highly doubt there are ANY Satanists on these forums with the exception of Isis.

With love,
James
 
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Jun 26, 2003
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Wayfarer said:
I will gladly participate, as I realize the Satan they follow is not considered the same as the Satan of the bible. Most Satanists I have met in real life, while not supporting Christianity, certainly weren't anti-Christian (they had 0 prejiduces against me, and we have had great philosophical discussions).

But, I highly doubt this thread will get much interaction as Christians usually aren't very respectful and are very misinformed about them.

I also highly doubt there are ANY Satanists on these forums with the exception of Isis.

With love,
James

There were others, and I invited Isis to join, but she may have been frustrated and left CF. How were your philosophical discussions?
 
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TrueQ

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Well, I follow a philosophy that borrows a lot of stuff from the philosophies of the Satanic Bible of Anton LeVay, and whenever I sit down and ask myself what the real difference between me and the Church of Satan is I always come back with 'I don't go to church.'. If anyone does have a question about Satanism, they are welcome to ask me (Except, why would a Satanist be on a Christian forum? Which has been done to death).

By and by, I'd just like to say that, just by creating this thread, you've ratcheted Christians up several notches in my eyes.
 
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Fuzzy

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Just a couple comments:


I think it's appropriate, required, and necessary that this thread be in the
"Non-Christian Religion" section. Woot! :)

I think it's important to respect when someone defines themselves
as a LaVey Satanist versus a "Satan will kill God! Grr!" Satanist,
as there is a difference.

Anyone looking for LaVey's Satanic Bible in E-format will be hard pressed,
as Church of Satan protects the work pretty well, although the official
site does list the basic tenets online.

I think Christians should look at this as a learning tool. At the very least,
it provides exposure to the Satanic mindset above and beyond tabloid
journalism and titillating whispers.
 
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Jun 26, 2003
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Does this basically cover Satanism? Did I get anything wrong?


  1. [*]Satanists believe in autonomy of the individual.
    Individuals are unique, and precious. One should attempt to know oneself, and to develop one's skills, talent, and character to the utmost. Some people are natural leaders; some are natural followers. Those who are masters should strive to be such, and those meant to tag behind should recognize this and be content in their true nature. But no one should attempt to unnecessarily restrict one's own nature (I say "unnecessarily" because living in society does impose some regulations on actions which must be obeyed if one wishes to continue to live). This includes such things as sexual restrictions, religious restrictions, political restrictions, etc. Of course, it's not a requirement that people LIKE what you believe, but that which you wish to be and believe, you should be free to do.

    Note: This is where a great many Satanists have issues with Christian witnessing or evangelism...forcing someone to listen to your beliefs when they don't wish do, or constantly going on when asked to stop, is in effect "imposing" yourself upon the other person, and attempting to nullify their autonomy. If you are trying to "reach" a Satanist, witnessing is not the way to go.
    [*]Satanists believe in striving for perfection of self (power).
    If you're good at what you do, you'll be successful. We all have the ability to be good at SOMETHING; we all have our abilities and weaknesses. The truth of the world is that the weak seldom get anywhere, unless they turn that very weakness into a strength of some sort. Being as good as possible at everything, however, gives you a MUCH greater chance at being successful and pleased with yourself. Saying "I'm not good at anything, but I deserve respect anyways!" is not really a very Satanic view. It's great that you realize you're not good at anything, but why should anyone respect that? What have you done to earn that respect? DO something, BE something, ACHIEVE something...then you'll have respect. Being a failure and doing nothing to change that results in a lifetime of...well....being a failure.
    [*]Satanists believe in 'gifts' unto the deserving.
    Respect, love, friendship, monetary awards, political power...you must EARN IT!! Whether this is by personal prowess or faithful worship of Satan or some other method, all things worth any important must be earned. To give something away freely to those who are undeserving or ungrateful does nothing but cheapen the gift, until it means nothing at all. What power is there behind "I love you" if you love everyone? What value is money, if everyone has all they want of it (think "inflation")? Certainly, a certain amount of recognition to another person as a living, sentient being is in order, but if you want something special, be prepared to show that YOU are something special, as well.
    [*]Satanists believe in Lex Talonis.
    Lex Talonis is a Latin phrase meaning "Law of the Talon," or, in other words "eye for an eye." Swift and fair, if brutal, justice. Today's penalty system, for most Satanists, is much too lax. One can do anything from shoplift to murder, and usually either get judged innocent, get set free on probation, or get cared for (food, bed, housing) for the rest of your life in jail. If you're going to punish people, then PUNISH THEM! Don't give them a slap on the wrist! Satanists believe in personal responsibility and accountability; that is, one is fully responsible for one's own actions, and should be aware of and acknowledge that fact. If you want to break the law, then break it! But be prepared to face the consequences. If you want to have unprotected sex, do it! But beware of possible diseases and pregnancy. Any action you take will have some ramification in your life; this does not curtail you from doing as you wish, but you must be prepared to answer to any issues which arise due to your actions. ((Another difference with Christianity, which generally preaches "anyone may be forgiven", which Satanists interpret as discarding personal accountability.))
    [*]Satanists believe "Satan" represents admirable qualities, while "Jesus" represents inadmirable qualities.
    Satan is generally seen as representing pride, self-sufficiency, individuality, free-will, knowledge, and power. Jesus is generally seen as representing false humility, subservience, blind obedience, weakness, and "herd-mentality." A common phrase I hear tossed around a lot in both Satanic and Atheistic circles is "Jesus slaves" (as opposed to 'Jesus saves').
    [*]
 
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Jun 26, 2003
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Crispie said:
1 Question, why worship the father of all lies that hates you and wants you to burn in hell?

that is what we are trying to find out:) Most Satanists might not believe that satan wants them to burn in hell. They think he is a wise friend. I think they are wrong.
 
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Arikay

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Most satanists I have talked too don't see satan as real, but a symbol. They also see him as getting a bum rap when it comes to the bible. So they see the claim that he is the "father of lies" coming from the symbol of the "father of lies" (god) and so they don't trust the bible to be an accurate description of satan.
 
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Fuzzy

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And of course this thread comes up when I've loaned out my copy of
LaVey's bible. Argh, and I had a lengthy reply point by point and my firewall
ate it.

The only real adjustment I'd make to your assessment is
that the "Lex Talonis" is applied more to personal life than
societal, and "Jesus" has little place in LaVey Satanism.

Now, that being said, based on your comment ("They think he is a wise friend. I think they are wrong") or Crispie's ("why worship the father of all lies that hates you and wants you to burn in hell?") would likely prevent Satanists from coming
here.

1. This is your forum (lair). By their faith, they enter another's lair with respect, or not enter.

2. By their faith, they only offer information when asked for it. You've asked.

3. Solipsism (expecting others to think like you do) is a major sin for them.
They already know, based on the above quotes, that you are prejudged
about them and disrespectful of the opinion you asked for. Thus, they
have no reason to expect or give respect.

4. The overall rules of CF, and specifically of this forum, prevent them
from returning your disrespect to you.

It would be against their faith to come in here, be belittled, try to answer
your questions, then "turn the other cheek." therefore, they won't enter.
 
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lovespeace

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I think there are two strains of Satanism, The yucky side that is just the antithesis of Christianity (ie a warp of our rites and rituals), and the pagan side that is more a throwback to the ancient worship of nature. Don't have much against the naturalist, don't understand the motivation of the first group.
 
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Fuzzy said:
And of course this thread comes up when I've loaned out my copy of
LaVey's bible. Argh, and I had a lengthy reply point by point and my firewall
ate it.

The only real adjustment I'd make to your assessment is
that the "Lex Talonis" is applied more to personal life than
societal, and "Jesus" has little place in LaVey Satanism.

Now, that being said, based on your comment ("They think he is a wise friend. I think they are wrong") or Crispie's ("why worship the father of all lies that hates you and wants you to burn in hell?") would likely prevent Satanists from coming
here.

1. This is your forum (lair). By their faith, they enter another's lair with respect, or not enter.

2. By their faith, they only offer information when asked for it. You've asked.

3. Solipsism (expecting others to think like you do) is a major sin for them.
They already know, based on the above quotes, that you are prejudged
about them and disrespectful of the opinion you asked for. Thus, they
have no reason to expect or give respect.

4. The overall rules of CF, and specifically of this forum, prevent them
from returning your disrespect to you.

It would be against their faith to come in here, be belittled, try to answer
your questions, then "turn the other cheek." therefore, they won't enter.

I merely said that I thought they were wrong, I do not see that as disrespect, but a statement of my beliefs. I would expect the same from satanists. I would not be insulted if they were asked, "What do you think of christians?" and they replied, "I think they are wrong." If they thought that I was right, they would not be satanists:sorry: Note that my quote was, "I think they are wrong", not I know they are wrong.

I have no desire to belittle anyone here, but I do reserve the right to disagree, just as would be the expected rights of satanists. Is this not fair? I opened this thread as the best idea that I could come up with for satanists to get a fair hearing. I want to understand exactly what it is they believe in order to analyze it as it truly is, and not what we believe it to be.

The request for discussion came from a satanist. She wanted a place to present her religion and defend it. I am not posting to troll for satanists, but resonding to a request. I promised not to belittle, but I may disagree. Is this acceptable?
 
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light-bringer

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Satanic Bunco Sheet

Because Anton LaVey has made Satanism so popular, everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon. If you’re new to the Realm of Darkness, suddenly feeling the fires of Satan burning within you, be warned: there are unethical individuals out there who will prey upon you, claim to teach you how to become a Great Black Magician overnight, who will promise instructional fellowship and activities with “True Masters,” who may claim unverifiable links with the Church of Satan or other such lineage. With the continued expansion of the Internet, this situation has multiplied geometrically, so your vigilance will continue to be tested as you walk along this cyber-midway. We expect that you will develop the cold-reading abilities of a Carney, rather than the naïveté of the mark. To that end, dear apprentice, we’re showing you some of the ropes. Here’s a tip sheet to recognize pseudo- and anti-Satanic groups that have sprouted up since LaVey started the original Church of Satan:

1. When someone claims to have a direct line of communication with Satan, watch out. Selling that kind of mysticism is exactly how Christianity has kept people enslaved in ignorance for centuries. It’s one of the things we’re fighting against.

2. Look out for jargon and secrets to which only the “initiated” can be privy. Once you’re processed through the lengthy and strictly-enforced “degree system,” you’ll discover there are really no answers, just more gobbledygook. If they have something worthwhile to say, they’ll say it. If they don’t, they’ll pretend they do anyway.

3. Check the copyright date. Much of the esoterica you may receive from supposed Masters as “wisdom” or “revelation” comes directly from Anton LaVey, the Church of Satan, or our affiliates. Don’t accept the inducements you may receive as emanating from some great brain, when they most likely were cribbed from material released by us weeks, months or years ago. If mainstream writers crib material daily, it can be expected that occultnik hacks would be the first to do likewise. The difference between legit writers doing it and Daimon Oleaginous doing it is that the “Daimon” sprinkles his articles with sour-grapes attacks on the Church of Satan while stealing from us. That’s Christianity—tearing down the “other guys,” who don’t have the “true message.” It boils down to more parasitism; without us these ersatz Satanists would shrivel up and blow away.

4. The most parasitic “Satanic” newsletters invariably contain a liberal dose of LaVey-baiting. Their editors’ masochistic requirements are exercised as “lively exchange.” Their mainstay is often the reprinting of any letter, pro or con, from anyone capable of grasping a writing implement or poking at a computer or typewriter key. When responding to such transparent tactics, it’s our policy to preface rebuttals with two acknowledgments:

A) “I know you’re a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and delight in hostile banter,” and

B) “Anything I write or say to you will keep you going for another six months.” The Satanic Bible advises to “question all things”—but it helps to be able to think, first.

5. Most pseudo-Satanic groups are short-lived, running out of money, enthusiasm or suckers before too long. An easier game comes along and they’re off in a new direction.

6. How do they deal with Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan? This is tricky—some current groups play the Christian game of handing out laurels with one hand while stabbing their progenitor in the back with the other. Others aren’t so subtle, boldly claiming to be the “true” or “evolved” Church of Satan. To make their rationale work, they must somehow convince you that the author of The Satanic Bible wasn’t practicing pure Satanism, that his Church has gone awry in the hands of his successors, and that their new (or “authentically historic”) brand is now the straight stuff. Still others just ignore Anton LaVey altogether and hope you won’t notice.

There are those who appropriate elements of the Church of Satan, as well as those who pretend to be the Church of Satan. Their bids for attention range from clumsily photocopied newsletters to slick websites. Don’t be fooled by unauthorized Grottos, phony Orders of the Trapezoid, Silly Intercommunication Networks, First (Second or Third) Churches of Satan, various and sundry Pathetic Priests (almost always of the “High” variety—Anton LaVey once asked, “Where are all the Low Priests?”), Mangy Magisters and other bogus diabolists who are cruising for malicious business interference lawsuits while demonstrating their lack of originality. Their game is to get your attention (it is their life’s blood), and then to separate you from your money. They know little of Satanism, but to the extent that they successfully fleece the rubes, there is at least a faint glimmer of understanding.

7. Be wary of the approach of “You probably aren’t smart enough to join us.” The only way you can prove them wrong is by joining! From the first material you get, you feel you have to prove and defend yourself. Don’t be fooled by flashy web graphics, big words, nice typing and/or fancy paper...and plenty of it. True Satanism builds the ego, it doesn’t tear it down.

8. Beware of cults offering sex orgies and drugs, or killing animals in the name of Satan. As you well know, these are not part of Satanic practices. The leaders are copying the lame-brain spook stories from Geraldo or Oprah and obviously know less than you do. Use common sense. Don’t let someone take advantage of you for his or her own perversity; examine motives carefully.

9. Carefully examine any groups who set themselves up as intermediaries between you and Satanism, who claim that they can instruct you on how to be a Satanist. Anton LaVey wrote The Satanic Bible, as well as his other works, in such a manner so that they can be directly understood—they are carnal and non-esoteric. No “teacher” is needed, no “guru” must interpret his words for you. If you are a Satanist, you’ll resonate with the concepts in his writings and know that this label is proper for the person you already are—you’re born a Satanist, you don’t become one.

Legitimate Grottos of the Church of Satan do at times conduct discussion groups, where those who have identified themselves as Satanists may discuss the application of the ideas presented in our basic literature. Those who offer courses to “teach” you about Satanism are attempting to fleece the gullible. Buy Anton LaVey’s books, view his videos, listen to his music, and explore the works by other Satanic leaders who he has inspired. Use your own wits to grasp them, as Dr. LaVey intended, and laugh at those foolish enough to waste their money on pompous professors.

10. Some other groups to watch out for:

A) Feminist, Wiccan-oriented, consciousness-raising groups who practice more male-bashing than magic;

B) New Age groups that promote LaVeyan concepts, but shun the dreaded “S” word;

C) Jargon-laden Christians masquerading as Satanists;

D) Pen-pal or lonely hearts social groups pretending to be elitists performing powerful Satanic rituals.

All of the above are subject to *****-fights, petty jealousies, and rivalries. They are safe havens for small-minded people trying to play head games, preferring the protection of groups rather than really working to apply what Anton LaVey wrote.

This is not to say that all groups are counterproductive to Satanism as a movement; there are many which are productive, supportive branches of the Church of Satan. Like various divisions of the same army, these distinct Grottos and Orders may emphasize one Satanic image over another, but they are all aligned, in communication and working toward the same goals.

But you must be prepared to sort the truth from the misinformation. Don’t be fooled by self-declared “Masters,” whether they’re wearing white robes or black. They are attempting to misdirect and subvert whatever you’ve developed in the way of ego or identity. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. Knowing this, if you choose to affiliate with any pseudo-Satanic or anti-Satanic groups, you may well find yourself disaffiliated from the Church of Satan. Forewarned is forearmed.
 
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TrueQ

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Fuzzy has hit it pretty well, and summed up the Satanic Bible pretty well. For example, my newfound respect for Boughtwithaprice demands that I ask if it would be okay to post some helpful short quotes from my Bible, whereas previously I would have just done it. Treat a Satanist with respect and they'll do the same to you, unless they're some punk kid with a crappy attitude, which is sadly all to common.

Anyway, as for this worshipping of the Father of Lies. That's obvious nonsense, for the most part, Satanists don't worship Satan, in fact, a lot of them don't even believe in him. Satan is a word that represents various high-minded ideas to them. On the other hand, a lot of Satanists do believe in him, and are normally called 'Classical Satanists', according to them, he is a real entity on one level or another who wants to help we humans out from under the oppressive regime of Jehovah.

But it is really pointless to be discussing the average Satanist. One of the main things in the Satanic Bible is that we humans are already divine, and that we can go out and create our own laws and morals as we choose. So Satanists will often do that, each one creating their own little set. A common misconception of this is that they advocate going out and killing people, rape, theft, and other various atrocities. This is not generally true, since most people on the street haven't done anything bad to me or the people I care about, for example, I don't feel any particular compulsion to take revenge on them.

Am I explaining this well? I've never been a spokesperson for a religion before. I know there is a link to a Satanic Bible online, but I'm hesitant to post it without permission.
 
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Rae

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Treat a Satanist with respect and they'll do the same to you, unless they're some punk kid with a crappy attitude

Hm. Other than the lady Isis, the other Satanists I've seen both in real life and on the Net have crappy attitudes and sneer at those who don't share their own exalted wisdom, particularly those of us who are Pagans. I was wondering if the Satanists here could explain this ... I would guess, however, the above quote is what you'd offer. Right?
 
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TrueQ said:
Fuzzy has hit it pretty well, and summed up the Satanic Bible pretty well. For example, my newfound respect for Boughtwithaprice demands that I ask if it would be okay to post some helpful short quotes from my Bible, whereas previously I would have just done it. Treat a Satanist with respect and they'll do the same to you, unless they're some punk kid with a crappy attitude, which is sadly all to common.

Anyway, as for this worshipping of the Father of Lies. That's obvious nonsense, for the most part, Satanists don't worship Satan, in fact, a lot of them don't even believe in him. Satan is a word that represents various high-minded ideas to them. On the other hand, a lot of Satanists do believe in him, and are normally called 'Classical Satanists', according to them, he is a real entity on one level or another who wants to help we humans out from under the oppressive regime of Jehovah.

But it is really pointless to be discussing the average Satanist. One of the main things in the Satanic Bible is that we humans are already divine, and that we can go out and create our own laws and morals as we choose. So Satanists will often do that, each one creating their own little set. A common misconception of this is that they advocate going out and killing people, rape, theft, and other various atrocities. This is not generally true, since most people on the street haven't done anything bad to me or the people I care about, for example, I don't feel any particular compulsion to take revenge on them.

Am I explaining this well? I've never been a spokesperson for a religion before. I know there is a link to a Satanic Bible online, but I'm hesitant to post it without permission.

Thank you for the respect TrueQ, and your restraint in posting links. I don't think that it would be proper for CF to link to the Satanic Bible, but anyone interested is free to use a search engine, as I have done. We can discuss it here.

In my research, I found that "Traditional Satanists" worship Satan as a divine being, yet I thought Isis and others were saying that they do not worship Satan, can you explain the discrepency?

It seems like your explanation makes satanism out to be atheistic, while the traditonalists view Satan as a benevolent being to be worshiped, like the Al Pacino character that said, "I love man, I am a fan of man" in the movie Devil's Advocate. :doh: I am not using movies to make sport of the subject, I just think that the symbol is easily recognizable and makes the point; I do not wish to make a joke of this.
 
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