Official CF thread discussing Satanism

[Fuzzy]

Hm. Other than the lady Isis, the other Satanists I've seen both in real life and on the Net have crappy attitudes and sneer at those who don't share their own exalted wisdom, particularly those of us who are Pagans. I was wondering if the Satanists here could explain this ... I would guess, however, the above quote is what you'd offer. Right?

I'm not a Satanist, I'll gladly defer to the opinion of one on this,
but basically, look at point 10 of the Satanic Bunco Sheet posted
earlier in this thread. Dianic Wicca is specifically mentioned because
of it's emphatic denial of male existence, which is a denial of
part of the carnal nature of mankind. Practitioners of "white" or
"right hand" magic are limiting themselves by not utilizing all magic.
Wicca's threefold law, for Satanists, is like the Hell of Christianity:
scare tactics to get you to act a certain way. For the LaVey Satanist,
magic is magic. It's an exertion of self will that can heal or destroy.
Any other use or restriction is denial, not indulgence. For the
traditional Satanist, the pagan could be viewed as another enemy to
be conquered. I'd posit the Satanists you've dealt with had had a
number of fluffybunny pagans telling them they were wrong and
spouting off some "goddess loves ewe" drivel, and they'd become so
jaded about that they had a kneejerk response to ANY pagan...or
they were just arrogant jerks.

 

[Nexus`]

and the pagan side that is more a throwback to the ancient worship of nature

That's a Wiccan, not a Satanist.

 

[TrueQ]

As to these discrepancies you mention. Traditional Satanists do worship Satan and believe he is some form or fashion of real being. Satanists influenced by Anton LaVey, and other more recent figures whom I call Neo-Satanists, generally view Satan as a metaphor for primal urges, carnal desires, and deadly sins. They can be pretty athiest, and a lot of them don't believe in magic or spirits or what have you. I do believe in such things, which explains pretty well why there are so many different factions and temples of Satanism.

A lot of Satanists do scoff a little at pagan religions, especially Wicca. The prevailing view is that Wicca and other pagan religions are Christianity rearranged and repackaged to appeal to new agers. There is still the concept of absolute moral laws backed up by divine retribution, which a Satanist will tell you is crazy talk, ain’t never been no ‘higher law’. The Three Fold Law is the most cited example of this. No offense to Wiccans and other pagans, we don’t really mind such behavior, but it does seem a little hypocritical and thus deserving of a little scorn.

And, again Fuzzy has a good bead on things, I consider myself pretty mellow, and I don’t think Christians are necessarily deserving of any wrath. But even the most chill person snaps every so often when faced with all these freaking missionaries. You know, last year, I was on a really terrific mailing list that had to be shut down when it was totally, TOTALLY, overrun with Islamic missionaries. But that is neither here nor there.

It's important to note that we Satanists don't follow the Golden Rule, "Do unto others as they do unto you." Is a much more common philosophy.

 

[TrueQ]

*Bump*

I'm just gonna bump this real quick, just the once, in case someone walks in with a question.

 

[light-bringer]

Its odd not many have questions :\

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I'm actually really surprised. I came back only to check my message inbox. It's nice to see that things can be turned around. I wish I could answer everything and say everything in one post but I can't so..i'll do it in a few.
I want to make a slight correction to your post TrueQ, Satanists don't necessarily 'worship' Satan. Worship generally implies religious services, or prayer and such, 'worship' as you put it, is more the result of the way of life.
Boughtwithaprice, I actually said that I do believe him to be an actual being, it was others posting in the same thread as me that either got the wrong end of the stick or other satanists saying that they didn't (modern/LaVeyan).

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I think there are two strains of Satanism, The yucky side that is just the antithesis of Christianity (ie a warp of our rites and rituals), and the pagan side that is more a throwback to the ancient worship of nature. Don't have much against the naturalist, don't understand the motivation of the first group.

I hope you don't mind me correcting you here. Your 'antithesis of Christianity' is not Satanism, it is devil worship, the direct opposite of Christianity.
Secondly, you must understand that 'pagan side' is not really an accurate description. Yes, I suppose, traditional Satanists (being those who see Satan as an actual being) are, in a way, pagan. It is your use of the word 'nature' that I wish to question. Nature, as in plants, trees, animals, is not essentially a whole great part of Satanism, more of an individual choice; Satanism is more about the 'nature' of the human being. The carnal side, as well as the spiritual side.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I'm actually really surprised. I came back only to check my message inbox. It's nice to see that things can be turned around. I wish I could answer everything and say everything in one post but I can't so..i'll do it in a few.
I want to make a slight correction to your post TrueQ, Satanists don't necessarily 'worship' Satan. Worship generally implies religious services, or prayer and such, 'worship' as you put it, is more the result of the way of life.
Boughtwithaprice, I actually said that I do believe him to be an actual being, it was others posting in the same thread as me that either got the wrong end of the stick or other satanists saying that they didn't (modern/LaVeyan).

Hi Isis

Glad you could join us. I woiuld like to possibly have philisophical discussions of your beliefs if you are willing. i found this definition of Satanism, is it accurate? or could you make corrections? Thanks


Satanists believe in autonomy of the individual.
Individuals are unique, and precious. One should attempt to know oneself, and to develop one's skills, talent, and character to the utmost. Some people are natural leaders; some are natural followers. Those who are masters should strive to be such, and those meant to tag behind should recognize this and be content in their true nature. But no one should attempt to unnecessarily restrict one's own nature (I say "unnecessarily" because living in society does impose some regulations on actions which must be obeyed if one wishes to continue to live). This includes such things as sexual restrictions, religious restrictions, political restrictions, etc. Of course, it's not a requirement that people LIKE what you believe, but that which you wish to be and believe, you should be free to do.

Note: This is where a great many Satanists have issues with Christian witnessing or evangelism...forcing someone to listen to your beliefs when they don't wish do, or constantly going on when asked to stop, is in effect "imposing" yourself upon the other person, and attempting to nullify their autonomy. If you are trying to "reach" a Satanist, witnessing is not the way to go.

Satanists believe in striving for perfection of self (power).
If you're good at what you do, you'll be successful. We all have the ability to be good at SOMETHING; we all have our abilities and weaknesses. The truth of the world is that the weak seldom get anywhere, unless they turn that very weakness into a strength of some sort. Being as good as possible at everything, however, gives you a MUCH greater chance at being successful and pleased with yourself. Saying "I'm not good at anything, but I deserve respect anyways!" is not really a very Satanic view. It's great that you realize you're not good at anything, but why should anyone respect that? What have you done to earn that respect? DO something, BE something, ACHIEVE something...then you'll have respect. Being a failure and doing nothing to change that results in a lifetime of...well....being a failure.

Satanists believe in 'gifts' unto the deserving.
Respect, love, friendship, monetary awards, political power...you must EARN IT!! Whether this is by personal prowess or faithful worship of Satan or some other method, all things worth any important must be earned. To give something away freely to those who are undeserving or ungrateful does nothing but cheapen the gift, until it means nothing at all. What power is there behind "I love you" if you love everyone? What value is money, if everyone has all they want of it (think "inflation")? Certainly, a certain amount of recognition to another person as a living, sentient being is in order, but if you want something special, be prepared to show that YOU are something special, as well.

Satanists believe in Lex Talonis.
Lex Talonis is a Latin phrase meaning "Law of the Talon," or, in other words "eye for an eye." Swift and fair, if brutal, justice. Today's penalty system, for most Satanists, is much too lax. One can do anything from shoplift to murder, and usually either get judged innocent, get set free on probation, or get cared for (food, bed, housing) for the rest of your life in jail. If you're going to punish people, then PUNISH THEM! Don't give them a slap on the wrist! Satanists believe in personal responsibility and accountability; that is, one is fully responsible for one's own actions, and should be aware of and acknowledge that fact. If you want to break the law, then break it! But be prepared to face the consequences. If you want to have unprotected sex, do it! But beware of possible diseases and pregnancy. Any action you take will have some ramification in your life; this does not curtail you from doing as you wish, but you must be prepared to answer to any issues which arise due to your actions. ((Another difference with Christianity, which generally preaches "anyone may be forgiven", which Satanists interpret as discarding personal accountability.))

Satanists believe "Satan" represents admirable qualities, while "Jesus" represents inadmirable qualities.
Satan is generally seen as representing pride, self-sufficiency, individuality, free-will, knowledge, and power. Jesus is generally seen as representing false humility, subservience, blind obedience, weakness, and "herd-mentality." A common phrase I hear tossed around a lot in both Satanic and Atheistic circles is "Jesus slaves" (as opposed to 'Jesus saves').

 

[MQTA]

Hmm, Satanism in my own words...

Satanism is recognizing that good and evil have no meaning or base beyond what we give them, and then giving them meaning and base.

...Yeah, I think that's a pretty good one. No gods to judge you but yourself sort of thing.

Great thread so far.

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

Satanists believe "Satan" represents admirable qualities, while "Jesus" represents inadmirable qualities.
Satan is generally seen as representing pride, self-sufficiency, individuality, free-will, knowledge, and power. Jesus is generally seen as representing false humility, subservience, blind obedience, weakness, and "herd-mentality." A common phrase I hear tossed around a lot in both Satanic and Atheistic circles is "Jesus slaves" (as opposed to 'Jesus saves').

Most of that description was pretty correct I think, except for the section I have quoted.
Satan doesn't necessarily represent admirable qualities. He does in a sense, that he represents intelligence, freedom of expression and such, but he also represents human nature. People are very much into supressing their true nature in these times, maybe because of cultural, religious or social pressures, Satan represents casting off these pressures and just being what you were born as, human, not some programmed version of a human.

 

[TrueQ]

Thanks, Isis, looks like I'm to used to people who know my private definitions of words. Anyways, yeah, I'd agree with most of those generalizations, even the Jesus slaves one. No doubt Jesus was an alright guy, and one who I would gladly buy lunch for, but over the years his message and image have taken on a meaning other than what he taught. Back in the day, he was deep into civil disobedience, non-violent protest, and breaking out of conformity. Nowadays we have all these "WWJD" stickers and it seems I trip over more conformity every time I turn a corner.

Of course, Satanists see this differently from Christianity, which causes no end of confusion. Part of the problem that arises from using the same symbol to mean two different things, I guess.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Most of that description was pretty correct I think, except for the section I have quoted.
Satan doesn't necessarily represent admirable qualities. He does in a sense, that he represents intelligence, freedom of expression and such, but he also represents human nature. People are very much into supressing their true nature in these times, maybe because of cultural, religious or social pressures, Satan represents casting off these pressures and just being what you were born as, human, not some programmed version of a human.

This is something that I would philosophically disagree with. I believe that humans need discipline as children. Children that are disciplined are much happier and are able to make more choices when the reach the age of majority, than there undisciplined counterparts.
In adults, there is also the problem of diminshing pleasure with constant satisfaction of desire. Those that constantly persue pleasure are ironically often unsatisfied and eventually miserable. Humans must control themselves for the good of themselves and society.
If lust is unbridled, pleasure may increase temporarily, but eventually boredom and discontent set in. If it is controlled then pleasure and contentment of all is increased over time. That is why we have laws.

Which true nature would you like humans to express, and what attributes do you wish to deprogram?

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I know what you mean TrueQ. For many Satanists Jesus is seen as the cause of hundreds of generations of 'slavery' in a religion; a religion based on the life of one person (who may or may not have existed) and rules from a book which was written by men.

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

This is something that I would philosophically disagree with. I believe that humans need discipline as children. Children that are disciplined are much happier and are able to make more choices when the reach the age of majority, than there undisciplined counterparts.
In adults, there is also the problem of diminshing pleasure with constant satisfaction of desire. Those that constantly persue pleasure are ironically often unsatisfied and eventually miserable. Humans must control themselves for the good of themselves and society.
If lust is unbridled, pleasure may increase temporarily, but eventually boredom and discontent set in. If it is controlled then pleasure and contentment of all is increased over time. That is why we have laws.

Which true nature would you like humans to express, and what attributes do you wish to deprogram?

I am not against the discipline of children. Nobody will seek pleasure all the time, I am more saying that people should have the ability to choose how and when they get that pleasure. Obviously, rape, as a form of pleasure for the rapist, is not acceptable, in any sense. As is said 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law', but it is about accepting what you do will also affect other people as well as yourselves. We obviously need control when it comes to crime such as murder, rape, burglary, fraud, because these things are just not acceptable, to anyone! I am more speaking of religious law, the 'seven deadly sins' are indeed very human things. Lust, gluttony, greed...these are human things, and obviously each individual needs to keep some control over these things, but they are still obviously human things, they are part of our nature.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I am not against the discipline of children. Nobody will seek pleasure all the time, I am more saying that people should have the ability to choose how and when they get that pleasure. Obviously, rape, as a form of pleasure for the rapist, is not acceptable, in any sense. As is said 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law', but it is about accepting what you do will also affect other people as well as yourselves. We obviously need control when it comes to crime such as murder, rape, burglary, fraud, because these things are just not acceptable, to anyone! I am more speaking of religious law, the 'seven deadly sins' are indeed very human things. Lust, gluttony, greed...these are human things, and obviously each individual needs to keep some control over these things, but they are still obviously human things, they are part of our nature.

Hmmm, seems a bit of miscomunication or misunderstanding is taking place.

You seem to agree that excess is wrong, which we agree on, but you appear to think that the church wants us to behave in inhuman ways of constant self denial. I have copied a table to show the christian view:

The order of the table Vice /Virtue against which it sins Brief description

Pride/Humility Seeing ourselves as we are and not comparing ourselves to others is humility. Pride and vanity are competitive. If someone else's pride really bothers you, you have a lot of pride.

Avarice/Greed/Generosity This is about more than money. Generosity means letting others get the credit or praise. It is giving without having expectations of the other person. Greed wants to get its "fair share" or a bit more.

Envy/Love "Love is patient, love is kind…" Love actively seeks the good of others for their sake. Envy resents the good others receive or even might receive. Envy is almost indistinguishable from pride at times.

Wrath/Anger/Kindness Kindness means taking the tender approach, with patience and compassion. Anger is often our first reaction to the problems of others. Impatience with the faults of others is related to this.

Lust/Self control Self control and self mastery prevent pleasure from killing the soul by suffocation. Legitimate pleasures are controlled in the same way an athlete's muscles are: for maximum efficiency without damage. Lust is the self-destructive drive for pleasure out of proportion to its worth. Sex, power, or image can be used well, but they tend to go out of control.

Gluttony /Faith and Temperance Temperance accepts the natural limits of pleasures and preserves this natural balance. This does not pertain only to food, but to entertainment and other legitimate goods, and even the company of others.

Sloth /Zeal Zeal is the energetic response of the heart to God's commands. The other sins work together to deaden the spiritual senses so we first become slow to respond to God and then drift completely into the sleep of complacency.


does this make sense? Can you show me your disagreement?

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that table.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with that table.

i am not making a point but asking a question about how your beliefs differ from it?

your initial reply to me made me think that you agreed with restraint, but you said that the seven deadly sins are part of human nature. I am asking how the christian view of them differs from yours?

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

The bible acts as a sort of 'guilt reminder' so that if someone oversteps a rule in the bible, or does something which is 'sinful' they are made to feel regret and guilt from it. Why should we be directed by a book? or should I say, why shouldn't we be directed by our own conciences?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The bible acts as a sort of 'guilt reminder' so that if someone oversteps a rule in the bible, or does something which is 'sinful' they are made to feel regret and guilt from it. Why should we be directed by a book? or should I say, why shouldn't we be directed by our own conciences?

I wasn't talking about the Bible, just the seven deadly sins vs the seven virtues and what your view of them is. I sense your reluctance to answer. I don't want to put you on the spot, so take your time to think about it, and perhaps we can talk later.

 

[Isis-Astoroth]

I didn't understand what you meant. What i'm trying to say is, that nothing should be a sin. Sins, virtues, all an opinion really. There should be no need to classify anything as a sin or a virtue, as each of these so called sins keeps themselves in check.