Of Enoch and Elijah

[Al Madeleon]

I've been thinking recently, about how "The Wages of Sin is Death." If Sin is hereditary, and an unhappy but expected circumstance at least once in a human life (thus differentiating Jesus from all other humans in that he never sinned,) then how could Elijah and Enoch be taken to God without dying? Both were pre-Christ figures (though it may have been pre-crucifixion Grace, as in Jesus forgiving the paralytic lowered through his roof; another thing I don't understand, as I thought the sacrifice was a necessary prerequisite.) How, then, was it possible for them to be taken up to God without dying?

For reference, Enoch is mentioned in Genesis 5:18-24 (in my NIV), and Elijah's ascendance to Heaven in a whirlwind is in 2 Kings 2:1-12.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Since the wages of sin is indeed death, I must conclude that both Enoch and Elijah reached a point in their lives where they were no longer affected by sin, in the least. They stopped sinning. Jesus sacrifice is retroactive. Let me give the definition of that word, to make things more clear.

extending in scope or effect to a prior time or to conditions that existed or originated in the past; especially : made effective as of a date prior to enactment, promulgation, or imposition

So, since they could have forgiveness by Jesus' sacrifice (there is no forgiveness without His blood, so that's how all Old Testament saints are forgiven), they were, by having faith in God, freed from the wages of sin.

We have eternal life when we believe, but since we still sin, the wages of sin still comes upon us in the form of physical death. We have eternal life that is spiritual, but not physical. The physical eternal life will be given to us at the resurrection.

However, if one of us could come to a point where he no longer sinned at all, then death would no longer have any effect on his body. Where there is no sin, there will be no "wages." This is my opinion, at least, and it is why I believe that Enoch and Elijah were "taken" instead of dying.

 

[herev]

IN the OT, forgiveness, mercy, and I believe salvation was based on one of two things--perfectly keeping the law--or God's mercy.
With Enoch, the law had as yet been given, so he was only under his conscience
With Elijah, he was under God's mercy
We, in the NT are not under God's mercy. God still requires perfection from us and he still requires atonement for our sins, and just punishment for those unatoned. However, Jesus--through is perfect sacrifice on the cross, offers us His blood as atonement. When God looks at those of us who believe, he sees not our sins, but the perfect blood of Christ.
That's my opinoin, anyway!

 

[Al Madeleon]

But if Elijah recieved Mercy, then why the Sacrifice of Jesus? Was it some sort of "payment for services rendered" (as Elijah is among the greatest prophets)?

 

[herev]

But if Elijah recieved Mercy, then why the Sacrifice of Jesus? Was it some sort of "payment for services rendered" (as Elijah is among the greatest prophets)?

no, mercy is underserved, but given at the discretion of whoever holds the power--it is not dependent on the receiver's actions or merit.
Good analogy I heard years ago.
A young boy told his father a lie.
His father asked him what he thought was proper punishment for his "sin"
The boy thought about it and said, 10 lashes with the belt.
The father agreed, and began to administer punishment.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9....
the boy waited, but 10 never came. The father told him that is mercy and left him alone to ponder
Later the father came and brought the boy out of his room and took him to get ice cream. The father then told him --that is grace.
NOt getting what you deserve in punishment is mercy
getting a blessing instead of punishment, when you deserve punishment--that's grace
Now for Elijah, he could not have been perfect, so he deserved death, he received mercy in that he didn't die.
He was taken away in a fiery chariot. Now, as I understand OT understandings of death, Elijah would not have gone to heaven, he would have gone to the place of the dead described by Jesus in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. He would not have received grace until Jesus paid for his sins. However, it could be said just as easily that he did not die, therefore he must have gone to heaven--then he got both mercy and grace--I'm ok with that, too
As to enoch walking with God--sounds like both mercy and grace to me, but hey--again, that was before the law

With Jesus, it is no longer left up to someone else's mercy, which they can choose to give or not to give without explanation. WE don't have to hope or worry about whether we will be the ones. Through jesus' death and resurrection, we are given the opportunity to believe and to KNOW that we will go to heaven on Jesus' righteousness, not of any of our own doing
again, just my opinion

 

[DanielRB]

IN the OT, forgiveness, mercy, and I believe salvation was based on one of two things--perfectly keeping the law--or God's mercy.
With Enoch, the law had as yet been given, so he was only under his conscience
With Elijah, he was under God's mercy
We, in the NT are not under God's mercy. God still requires perfection from us and he still requires atonement for our sins, and just punishment for those unatoned. However, Jesus--through is perfect sacrifice on the cross, offers us His blood as atonement. When God looks at those of us who believe, he sees not our sins, but the perfect blood of Christ.
That's my opinoin, anyway!

I agree, Herev--although I would say that no one has ever perfectly kept the law, so all who are saved are saved because of God's mercy--and all who are damned are damned because of God's justice. God's mercy is that He sent His Son to die for us; His justice was that that death satisfied the requirements of the law for all who would believe. So, we are both under God's justice and His mercy.

As to the OP, I believe that the death refered to is primarily spiritual death--seperation from God. We all are in this state, until by God's mercy through Christ's sacrifice we are raised from spiritual death. I believe even Old Testament saints fall under this category.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[StAnselm]

There are some good questions being raised in this thread. Particularly Ad Madelon's:

But if Elijah recieved Mercy, then why the Sacrifice of Jesus?

This is in fact, answered in the New Testament, in one of the most amazing verses in the whole Bible:

"God put forward [Jesus] as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." (Romans 3:25)

Do you see what Paul is saying here? It's as if there was a great question mark hanging over God's righteousness in the Old Testament - how could a just God forgive sin the way he did?? How could he let people like Elijah into heaven, without proper payment for their sins? Jesus deals with this problem - he died to forgive all the sins of the Old Testament saints as well.

Herev,

With Enoch, the law had as yet been given, so he was only under his conscience

I don't think we can say this at all - otherwise, why was Cain wrong in killing his brother? No - God's law had been revealed in some way right from the very beginning. And according to Romans 3, all have sinned - so we cannot say that Enoch went to heaven because he was perfect. He went to heaven because God was merciful to him through Jesus.

 

[DanielRB]

Well said, StAnselm.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[Ainesis]

Okay. So why was God merciful to Enoch and Elijah in that way? What was it about them that led to God taking them bodily from this earth? Any thoughts?

 

[StAnselm]

The fact that it is mercy (as Herev said) means that there doesn't have to be a reason - with Enoch, we are told that he walked with God; with Elijah I don't think we're given any reason.

 

[DanielRB]

The fact that it is mercy (as Herev said) means that there doesn't have to be a reason - with Enoch, we are told that he walked with God; with Elijah I don't think we're given any reason.

Exactly; grace is "unmerited favor". God's choice to show mercy is all that is required. He's never compelled to either grant it or withhold it.

I probably wouldn't say there was no reason; but I would rather say that there is a reason known only to God that has nothing to do with our righteousness or works.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[Ainesis]

I also agree. So perhaps "why" was not the best choice of words for me.

What I am really getting at is what are we supposed to take away from these two events? What significance do they hold for us?

I don't believe that anything reflected in Scripture is willy nilly but is there for a reason. So, why do you think that God has recorded these events for us and how is your understanding of Him enlightened by these events?

 

[TheScottsMen]

I've been thinking recently, about how "The Wages of Sin is Death." If Sin is hereditary, and an unhappy but expected circumstance at least once in a human life (thus differentiating Jesus from all other humans in that he never sinned,) then how could Elijah and Enoch be taken to God without dying? Both were pre-Christ figures (though it may have been pre-crucifixion Grace, as in Jesus forgiving the paralytic lowered through his roof; another thing I don't understand, as I thought the sacrifice was a necessary prerequisite.) How, then, was it possible for them to be taken up to God without dying?

For reference, Enoch is mentioned in Genesis 5:18-24 (in my NIV), and Elijah's ascendance to Heaven in a whirlwind is in 2 Kings 2:1-12.

I believe the two jewish witnesses in the book of Rev are Elijah and Enoch. So, IMHO , they will die.

 

[ps139]

I've been thinking recently, about how "The Wages of Sin is Death." If Sin is hereditary, and an unhappy but expected circumstance at least once in a human life (thus differentiating Jesus from all other humans in that he never sinned,) then how could Elijah and Enoch be taken to God without dying? Both were pre-Christ figures (though it may have been pre-crucifixion Grace, as in Jesus forgiving the paralytic lowered through his roof; another thing I don't understand, as I thought the sacrifice was a necessary prerequisite.) How, then, was it possible for them to be taken up to God without dying?

Quite simple - God is not bound by His own rules.
He made physical rules on earth, yet the miracles He performs defies those rules. Likewise, "spiritual rules" (for lack of a better term) can be broken by God if He pleases. I do not know why God assumed Enoch and Elijah to heaven, but if He wants to.... He can!!

 

[holyrokker]

Romans 3:25-26 says "God presented him (Jesus) as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

So we find that God was indeed forgiving sin before Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice then made up for all the sins commited by believers beforehand that God had forgiven.
I conclude from this that Christ's sacrifice, then, was once for all time. If it was sufficient to cover the sins of those who came before Him - it's sufficient to cover the sins of those who came afterwards (us and all future generations)

So - the question of whether or not Enoch and Elijah never sinned -- I think they probably did - but their sin was covered by Christ's sacrifice just as ours are today. Since Jesus death is a substitute for ours, then it's no problem that Enoch and Elijah didn't experience death.

 

[Archangel]

The reason why Elijah and Enoch have not died is because they have yet to return to earth to fill the role of the two witnessess of Revelation. Elijah and Enoch will face death, God has preserved them for the tirbulation to prophecy for him in that time. [See Revelation 11]

 

[ps139]

Why do you think that Enoch and Elijah are the two witnesses in Rev 11?

 

[Archangel]

Good question ps193.

I have several reasons.

1] They are persons, they have mouths, bodies and face persecution. [Revelation 11:9]
2] They are both prophets. [Revelation 11:3,6,10]
3] They are powerful. [Revelation 11:3,6]
4] They are preserved. [Revelation 11:11]

What two people fit this catagory?

We can look at three classical figures who could possibly be the two witnessess. They are Elijah, Moses and Enoch.


Why Elijah?

Elijah was a prophet of judgment, and some of the miracles he did are similiar to those of the two witnessess, who are also judgment prophets.

Elijah stopped the rain, [1 Kings 18:42-45; James 5:17-18]
The two witnessess cans stop the rain [Rev. 11:6]

Elijah brought down fire on his enemies [2 Kings 1]
The two witnessess can bring forth fire to destroy their enemies [Rev. 11:5]

Elijah was taken to heaven and did not experience death [2 Kings 2:11-12].
The two witnessess, however do experience death, but they too are taken to heaven [Rev. 11:11-12]

Furthur, God promised he would send Elijah back to earth again.

'See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.' [Malachi 4:5]

Some claim that this prophecy was fullfilled with the life of John the Baptist. This is based on what Jesus said about John in Matthew's account:

'And if you [Jews] are willing to accept it, he [John] is the Elijah who was to come.'
[Matthew 11:14]

and

'The disciples asked him [Jesus], "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recodnise him, but have done to him everything they wished...'
[Matthew 17:10-12]

From this it seems that John did fullfill Malachi's prophecy, but read carefully what Jesus said, 'If you are willing to accept it' The Jews did not accept that John was the fullfillment, in fact they failed to recodnise that he was sent to fullfill the prophecy [Matthew 17:12]. So therefore John is ruled out from the fullfillment of Malachi.

Also, the angel said to John's father, Zechariah;

'And will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah...'
[Luke 1:17]

This does not mean that John would be a literal Elijah, rather he would be like Elijah, a prophet speaking repentance, goind before the Lord. John himself said he was not Eljiah [John 1:21]
In fact if you examine Elijah and Elisha in 1 and 2 Kings we can see that Elijah's is somewhat like Johns, preaching judgment and repentance, whereas Elisha's is somewhat like Christs, preaching God's acceptance and healing.

Malachi must then be taken literally, a literal return of Elijah, which mist likely fits the role of one of the two witnessess, 'the great and dreadful day of the Lord' what else is Malachi speaking about rather than God's judgment?


Why Moses?

Moses also prophesied judgment, he brought forth the 10 commandments [Exodus 20] and so brought judgment through the law. Many miracles that happened around Moses involved fire coming from heaven to devour people, we can read about that in Numbers.

Moses also brought various plagues, the 10 plagues on Egypt and certian plagues upon the Israelites. The Two witnessess also have this ability [Rev. 11:6] Notice the ability to turn water to blood, like Moses.

Moses however did not asend to heaven. His body was taken careof by the archangel Michael [Jude 9].


Why Enoch?

Enoch was a judgment prophet. He prophesied the coming of God's judgment upon the wicked [Jude 14-15]

We do not know much about Enoch except these two facts, the fact that he was a prophet of judgment, and the fact that he did not die. [Genesis 5:21-24; Hebrews 11:5]


In conclusion

From these three men we can say that Elijah is probably one of the two, but who is the other?

I have reason to believe Elijah and Enoch because both these men share one common fact. Neither has experienced death, and that creates a problem with the following verse:

'Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...'
[Hebrews 9:27]

The bible says every man is destined to die then to face judgment, surely this is a contridiction! Elijah and Enoch didn't die, so the bible lies! Well, if Elijah and Enoch are the two witnessess then the bible has not lied, and the bible, after all, cannot lie.

Enoch and Elijah have been destined to die, so God has preserved them from death so that they can be brought back during the tribulation to be prophets and to testify before God. Their mission will end with their deaths, and then their resurrection, so Elijah and Enoch will return, die and then resurrect and go to heaven, they will have fullfilled what Hebrews says.

 

[visionary]

If these two are the two witnesses of revelation, this will give us some idea of the mystery that they will be revealing to us with their message.


Da: 8:13: Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

[visionary]

The two witnesses and their message face off against the son of perdition (Jesus's Christ Imitation done by Satan himself) that appears to confuse the masses brings about tribulation such as never before witnessed upon the earth. Tribulation of the mind and turmoil with the conflicts of information given. As tribulation is in everyone’s mind, so also will the outwards signs of turmoil be among the people, as the rulers look to control the masses, and leaders look to lead the crowd. Everyone will be taking a position, everyone holding and protesting even if it takes forcing their beliefs or position upon others until there is nothing left to be said because everyone is willing to die for the position they will then hold. All the world will then be judged accordingly, and the plaques will fall afflicting each and everyone justly in righteous judgement.

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him [the sea beast] a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

In that three and one half time period, during this turmoil, those who are witnessing for Christ will find it getting extremely difficult to the point that they will wear out. They will be exausted from warning and wooing on the hardness of the hearts of men to change while there is still an opportunity.

Daniel 7:25 And he [the horn that came up] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

During the Feast of Trumpets, you will have watchmen who will give out the trumpet warning, the heralding of the news, the announcements of what is soon to come to pass. These watchmen on the wall of Zion are the two witnesses of Revelation.

Numbers 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. 25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. 26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

So it will be when the two witnesses, in Revelation, prophesy to the world, they will open the eyes of the world as to what is going on in God’s world. They will also show what is going on and going to happen in our world as we near the end of earth’s history