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Of Enoch and Elijah

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Trench777

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Well, I have an opinion on this that has not been expressed here, so far.

This is one of those fun questions that your salvation doesn't hinge on & in the end of ends it's not going to matter one whit whether you knew the answer or not (in my opinion), which makes it an amusing thing to think & talk on.

I think they were taken up in bodily form and did not experience death (yet) as a reward.

The only one I can really speak to, is Elijah, since there are only 2 references to Enoch (non-apocryphia) in the Bible.

One of the compelling things about the Bible, is it's very unflattering, glaring observations of the people depicted in it. If (and we know this isn't the case) the Bible were written by men, for men as a creation of nothihng but imagination, the person/people who wrote it would be highly unlikely to depict themselves in such flawed ways. "Let's just say I didn't get into the Promised Land, K? There's no reason to bore them with the whole 'rock smacking' thing, is there?" or "Hey...I was just looking out my window at the sunset. I had NO idea that chick was gonna be taking a bath on her roof! How was I to know?!?". One of the things that sets the Bible apart from human fictions, is how unrelenting it is about exposing its "hero's" flaws and mistakes.

Of all the "major" people in the Old Testament, nearly to a man they all transgressed against God in varying degrees. From Soloman's heathen wives, to Moses rock-beating incident, to David & Bathsheba, Jonah's defiance, Abram's lieing about Sarai, Jacob's "stealing" of Esau's birthright, and on & on & on.

But, Elijah...is never documented as having transgressed against God's direct instruction or ever being defiant or even reluctant about doing what God said, when God said to do it & how God said to do it. He was a VERY obedient servant. Now, I'm not saying that Elijah never sinned, because we know that no one under the Law could ever keep it perfectly, but I'm saying, that as apt as the Bible is to point out its "hero's" flaws, Elijah was never found guilty of major transgression. For this, I believe he was rewarded with a whirlwind ride to Heaven. (Abraham's bosom in the NT about Lazarus & the rich man was "only" for the dead, I think?).

So, there you have my theory. Elijah was rewarded for a lifetime of faithful, extreme obedience to God's will and instruction.

"Enoch walked with God", also perhaps implying a faithful servant who has achieved compliance with God's will (check this: If you are walking towards God, you are attempting to do His will, if you are walking away, you are in defiance, if you are walking WITH God, perhaps you are IN His perfect will. Just another thought.)

Feel free to debunk this theory with scripture, as I admit I have not done a verse by verse study on this, but it is all factual to the best of my recollection.

May God's Word be a light to your path!

T777
 
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Suzannah

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Trench777 said:
Well, I have an opinion on this that has not been expressed here, so far.

This is one of those fun questions that your salvation doesn't hinge on & in the end of ends it's not going to matter one whit whether you knew the answer or not (in my opinion), which makes it an amusing thing to think & talk on.

I think they were taken up in bodily form and did not experience death (yet) as a reward.

The only one I can really speak to, is Elijah, since there are only 2 references to Enoch (non-apocryphia) in the Bible.

One of the compelling things about the Bible, is it's very unflattering, glaring observations of the people depicted in it. If (and we know this isn't the case) the Bible were written by men, for men as a creation of nothihng but imagination, the person/people who wrote it would be highly unlikely to depict themselves in such flawed ways. "Let's just say I didn't get into the Promised Land, K? There's no reason to bore them with the whole 'rock smacking' thing, is there?" or "Hey...I was just looking out my window at the sunset. I had NO idea that chick was gonna be taking a bath on her roof! How was I to know?!?". One of the things that sets the Bible apart from human fictions, is how unrelenting it is about exposing its "hero's" flaws and mistakes.

Of all the "major" people in the Old Testament, nearly to a man they all transgressed against God in varying degrees. From Soloman's heathen wives, to Moses rock-beating incident, to David & Bathsheba, Jonah's defiance, Abram's lieing about Sarai, Jacob's "stealing" of Esau's birthright, and on & on & on.

But, Elijah...is never documented as having transgressed against God's direct instruction or ever being defiant or even reluctant about doing what God said, when God said to do it & how God said to do it. He was a VERY obedient servant. Now, I'm not saying that Elijah never sinned, because we know that no one under the Law could ever keep it perfectly, but I'm saying, that as apt as the Bible is to point out its "hero's" flaws, Elijah was never found guilty of major transgression. For this, I believe he was rewarded with a whirlwind ride to Heaven. (Abraham's bosom in the NT about Lazarus & the rich man was "only" for the dead, I think?).

So, there you have my theory. Elijah was rewarded for a lifetime of faithful, extreme obedience to God's will and instruction.

"Enoch walked with God", also perhaps implying a faithful servant who has achieved compliance with God's will (check this: If you are walking towards God, you are attempting to do His will, if you are walking away, you are in defiance, if you are walking WITH God, perhaps you are IN His perfect will. Just another thought.)

Feel free to debunk this theory with scripture, as I admit I have not done a verse by verse study on this, but it is all factual to the best of my recollection.

May God's Word be a light to your path!

T777
How very....Orthodox.... :thumbsup:
Quite so according to the Holy Fathers....you are in excellent company with this opinion. :)
 
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Trench777

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Suzannah said:
How very....Orthodox.... :thumbsup:
Quite so according to the Holy Fathers....you are in excellent company with this opinion. :)

Really? Well, cool. :amen:

(I'm VERY poorly versed in the differences between...doctrines? Denominations? I tend to just "call 'em as I see 'em" and let myself be guided by The Holy Spirit as much as possible.)

Praise God!

T777
 
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sandman

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I have not seen where anybody else brought this up aspect, so I will:

Enoch



Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

The word translated in verse 5 is rendered as “carried over” in Acts 7:16 ---“removed” in Galations 1:6 --- and “changed” in Hebrews 7:12.

God moved Enoch from one place to another so that he would not see death. No place in the scripture does it say that God gave Enoch everlasting life.

Two different concepts to “see death” from Heb 11:5. The first is the word see translated eidon in the Greek which is “to look at with actual perception with one’s eyes”. In the OT one discovers that Enoch has never seen anyone pass away. So this could be, that because Enoch pleased God, God moved him from one place to another so that he would not see his loved ones die.

Or

The other may be that God was protecting him from his evil contemporaries, because he walked and prophesied for God. So God translated him that he would not see death at that time.

Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

But Enoch did eventually die as is recorded in Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

These all {without exception} included Enoch.
_________________________________________________________________



Elijah



II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

The assumption that Elijah went to a place of everlasting life is not stated anyplace in the scripture. The word heaven has several usages in the scripture. “The dew of heaven”, “the birds of heaven”, “the stars of heaven”. The word heaven biblically speaking is anyplace {the sky} above the earth. God supernaturally moved Elijah from one place to another. The other prophets according to this account understood this and wanted to go look for him. Elisha however knowing that God would have hidden Elijah did not want them to go.

God moved him from one place to another similar to what he did with Philip in Acts 8:39 & 40a And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus:

_________________________________________________________________


Most assuredly someone will bring up the transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-9

1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2:
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3:
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4:
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5:
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6:
And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7:
And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8:
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.




The key to understanding this is in the third verse with the word appeared. That word is translated optomai in the Greek, which means seeing objectively, or envisioning. The word blepö in the Greek is the word used when “one uses the eyes to look at”. Jesus clearly states in verse 9 tat this was a vision it was not seen blepö, but this phenomenon was seen in “the minds eye” The word states that Elijah is dead in Hebrews 11:13 and Joshua 1:2 declares that “Moses my servant is dead”

A vision {trance}is a spiritual phenomenon in which God causes something to appear to a person either in the minds eye or to the physical eye. Some examples are II Kings 6:17; Acts 10:9-20 II Corinthians 12: 1-4

Keep in mind that the word cannot contradict itself.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God Bless

sandman
 
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