Of Course I Believe in Prosperity, so do you

[MinJeremiah]

Anyone who wants to improve or live a better life desires prosperity. The problem with people is they just don't wanna use the word prosperity.

The dictionary defination of prosperity is successful, flourishing, or thriving condition, especially in financial respects; good fortune. The Bible defines it as success, happiness, health, peace, wholeness, and abundance.

What prosperity is not: get rich scheme, sin, not part of the gospel, something preachers shouldn't have, something not to be desired, or a gimic.

First let me say that the prosperity message has been abused, but not to the extent as some proclaim. There a very few preachers that are stealing from people. Usually the ones who are you have never even heard of.

There is nothing bad in the defintion of prosperity. In fact mostly everyone who will read this is pursuing all these things. There is a error however in the church world that you can't talk about it in church or pursue it through the Bible; or people try to seperate money from prosperity. However the Bible is the best authority on the subject and money is inluded with prosperity. No prosperity is not just about money. We know that. When people say that, it is to get you to not talk about money at all. It does include money though. It isn't about material things, but it includes them.

The fact is you want more money and you want material things. You work 40 hrs a week for what? Money. You invest in a college education for what? Money and success. You workout and try to eat right for what? A healthy body. If you want to own you own home and be debt free you desire prosperity. If you want a nice car, you desire prosperity. For some reason you think you desires are more moral than
other. It is ok to desire a boat, but not a rolex; a camper not a lexus... WRONG!!!

Anytime God manfests himself in your life that is prosperity. It doesn't matter how small or big it may seem to you, it is prosperity. But for some reason folks don't want to call it that though. Properity isn't a bad word.

Does God want you to have expensive material things? The question is do you want expensive material things and can you really afford them? If you can afford them He doen't care. God does't set the value on things, man does. All cars and clothes are just cars and clothes to God. A million dollar home and a fifty thousand dollar home are just homes to him. This is where your desire and will come in. Think about it, look at how God lives. He walks on gold streets. Do you think he cares if you buy your wife something that say Louis Vuitton on it? If that floats your boat and creates happiness and enjoyment, buy it. It is all about preference. I like Lincoln. Others like Cadillac or BMW. Some like Bently and Phantom. It is your choice.

"God doesn't want everyone rich and having millions of dollars..." Whatever God wants you rich. Again another one of those words. Rich doesn't mean millionaire. it just means having abundant supply. God want you to have alot of money. you want alot of money also. It takes money to go places, to give, to see, to live. It takes money to both survive and to thrive. You need to make and receive as much money as you can for the glory of God.

The fact is you support the prosperity message two ways or one way. Either you agree with it on vocally and with actions or with just your actions. If you have a job, your practicing one of the priciples to fianancial prosperity. If you have a saving and checking account, you supporting another principle. If you pray to get help that is another. If you eat out at a restuarant, there it is again. If you drive your own car when you can take the city bus I gotch you also. I can keep going on and on. Just dive in. you practice and believe in properity.

 

[Biblicist]

First let me say that the prosperity message has been abused, but not to the extent as some proclaim. There a very few preachers that are stealing from people. Usually the ones who are you have never even heard of.

I would probably delete this part of your post as the wof/prosperity movement has turned greed and selfishness into a veritable science. We only have to take a look at the so called ministries who spread their wares from within this movement to see how they have in most part manipulated the gullible or maybe they have simply been playing to the innate selfishness/greed that resides within us.

 

[MinJeremiah]

I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.

 

[Biblicist]

I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.

If you wish to keep your position above the level of banality then you might wish to consider removing your post as many of us could easily hurt ourselves by falling off our chairs laughing.

I suppose if I were to compile a list of the wickedness and false doctrine that goes under the wof banner that it would probably go for many pages; therefore it may be prudent to simply provide the name of the latest wof disaster with that of Creflo Dollar who was recently charged with trying to strangle his daughter link. If this has been a credible ministry then I would have been horrified but as it came from within the extreme wof camp then I suppose this is just one more straw to add to the camels back.

Sadly I wasn't shocked by all this as there is probably very little under the wof sun that would surprise me.

 

[Humble Pie]

Many wealthy people are wealthy because they're workaholics. The people who are wealhy simply by the nature of their occupation are uncommon. So working for a living and working to get rich are not necessarily driven by the same ethic.

 

[Biblicist]

I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.

Then there's Randy White link. I think I should probably leave it at this as it would be too easy to post disaster after disaster...and I suppose for what real purpose.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Many wealthy people are wealthy because they're workaholics. The people who are wealhy simply by the nature of their occupation are uncommon. So working for a living and working to get rich are not necessarily driven by the same ethic.

I think the issue is not wealth but greed.
There are more greedy, money-loving poor people than there are rich of the same lust. Which is a shame since they have nothing with which to fulfil their lust. Just because you have money does not mean you are greedy. And just because you have no money does not mean you are not greedy. I would rather be weathy and not greedy than poor and greedy.

Just saying...

 

[probinson]

therefore it may be prudent to simply provide the name of the latest wof disaster with that of Creflo Dollar who was recently charged with trying to strangle his daughter link.

Here's a more complete detailing of that incident;

Rev. Creflo Dollar arrested on family violence charges - Atlanta News, Weather, Traffic, and Sports | FOX 5

For those of you who don't wish to read it, the jist of it is Mr. Dollar's 15-year old daughter called 911 after arguing with him about whether or not she could go to a party and told the operator that her father had "...punched me and frightened me and choked me..." When the 911 operator asked his daughter if she had any injuries, she responded, "No, ma'am." Interesting response for someone who was just allegedly punched and choked.

When police arrived, they found a scratch on the right side of the daughter's throat that they classified as, "...superficial injuries..."

But all of these facts are just an inconvenience to the folks who want to shout CREFLO DOLLAR GOT ARRESTED FOR CHOKING HIS DAUGHTER!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I had a teenage daughter....
I can commiserate.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Here's a more complete detailing of that incident;

Rev. Creflo Dollar arrested on family violence charges - Atlanta News, Weather, Traffic, and Sports | FOX 5

For those of you who don't wish to read it, the jist of it is Mr. Dollar's 15-year old daughter called 911 after arguing with him about whether or not she could go to a party and told the operator that her father had "...punched me and frightened me and choked me..." When the 911 operator asked his daughter if she had any injuries, she responded, "No, ma'am." Interesting response for someone who was just allegedly punched and choked.

When police arrived, they found a scratch on the right side of the daughter's throat that they classified as, "...superficial injuries..."

But all of these facts are just an inconvenience to the folks who want to shout CREFLO DOLLAR GOT ARRESTED FOR CHOKING HIS DAUGHTER!

the reason no one is responding to that because it has nothing to do with being rich.

Further, he has not been convicted of anything. The media are pulling back on the story because the vast majority sided with him on the issue. People overwelmingly support parents right to dicipline children.

anyways on the subjecy of money, Creflo Dollar is teaching the exact same way I posted originally. He teaches a balanced approech to prosperity. he doesn't even get a salary from his church, not that that is ok. He teaches a solid work ethic, investing, and ect. This is all bible.

Do you believe in sowing and reaping?

 

[probinson]

the reason no one is responding to that because it has nothing to do with being rich.

I know that and you know that. But Biblicist seems to think it does.

Further, he has not been convicted of anything. The media are pulling back on the story because the vast majority sided with him on the issue. People overwelmingly support parents right to dicipline children.

I don't know what really happened (because I wasn't there), but based on the facts in the story I linked, it sounds to me like a rebellious teenager who didn't get her way called 911 for no good reason.

anyways on the subjecy of money, Creflo Dollar is teaching the exact same way I posted originally. He teaches a balanced approech to prosperity. he doesn't even get a salary from his church, not that that is ok. He teaches a solid work ethic, investing, and ect. This is all bible.

Do you believe in sowing and reaping?

I don't know, nor care, what Creflo Dollar teaches about prosperity and/or money, but I do most certainly believe in the principle of sowing and reaping.

 

[MinJeremiah]

I know that and you know that. But Biblicist seems to think it does.



I don't know what really happened (because I wasn't there), but based on the facts in the story I linked, it sounds to me like a rebellious teenager who didn't get her way called 911 for no good reason.



I don't know, nor care, what Creflo Dollar teaches about prosperity and/or money, but I do most certainly believe in the principle of sowing and reaping.

Great

 

[Biblicist]

Miahdog,
As you can probably tell by now, on a public forum it may not be all that wise to say;

• First let me say that the prosperity message has been abused, but not to the extent as some proclaim. There a very few preachers that are stealing from people. Usually the ones who are you have never even heard of.
• There is nothing bad in the defintion of prosperity.
• I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.
• etc, etc

For many of us the wof/prosperity message is a cancer within the church and nothing else so you will need to be aware that when you make definitive statements about the supposed credibility of the primary wof/prosperity celebrities (and in such a glaring manner) that you will undoubtedly come in for some well deserved flack; as such, you would be better off targeting a specific and much smaller area which can be better defended, even if you have to use a smokescreen to do so but this can be an effect tool when the broader issue cannot be rationally defended.

As for Creflo Dollar, I first came across this information in charisma magazine and I did go to some secular links and even the one that probinson linked to and it seems that the police found some solid enough grounds to lay charges against Dollar. So it seems that Creflo Dollar has been unable to apply this ‘faith’ to his own family, which is sort of the point of your topic isn’t it. I grant that if this had been a credible ministry then I would have been both shocked and disappointed by this type of behaviour but as it was from a wof/prosperity celebrity then it came as no surprise as most of them seem to live one life on a Sunday and another during the week – one that is built on human greed and selfishness.

I do support a standard which can involve tough-love but one would have thought that as Dollar is always talking about the benefits of applying faith, or at least faith in one’s own faith, then his version of that faith should have first been evident within his own family - again the point of your topic.

The picture of Dollars palatial home and estate that was shown on myfoxatlanta.com should at least enable Dollar and his daughter to live in together which I gather is a requirement that the judge stipulated and as the home is so large I suspect that they will only come across each other once a week – what a massive home!

… anyways on the subjecy of money, Creflo Dollar is teaching the exact same way I posted originally. He teaches a balanced approech to prosperity. he doesn't even get a salary from his church, not that that is ok. He teaches a solid work ethic, investing, and ect. This is all bible.

Wow…do you mean that he gained all that wealth by merely having a side job on his day off – maybe I should buy his book!

…the reason no one is responding to that because it has nothing to do with being rich.

No one is responding!...maybe I'm reading the wrong articles - which was raised by charisma magazine itself.

It seem that you are failing to appreciate that when children see their dad preaching one thing on a Sunday and living a life during the week that is in stark contrast, then this can and certainly does create problems within the family unit, simply family life 101. Again, this relates directly to your topic - the one which you raised.

 

[Humble Pie]

There are more greedy, money-loving poor people than there are rich of the same lust.

That'd be because there are more poor people to put through the number cruncher. That said, research suggests your claim is incorrect anyway. I'll put the link here in a while if I can find it but I have to go out just now. It's pretty interesting reading.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That'd be because there are more poor people to put through the number cruncher. That said, research suggests your claim is incorrect anyway. I'll put the link here in a while if I can find it but I have to go out just now. It's pretty interesting reading.

Thanks, I'd love to see it.
Statistically there should be more greedy poor people than greedy rich people, simply because (as you suggest) the pool of poor people is larger.

 

[probinson]

Miahdog,
For many of us the wof/prosperity message is a cancer within the church and nothing else...

Yes, we know that there is an intense and bitter hatred here of anything "WoF" by some people.

It's sad, however, that you can call my beliefs a "cancer" and not even think twice about it. If I cared about your opinion, I might be offended.

But luckily, I don't.

 

[MinJeremiah]

Miahdog,
As you can probably tell by now, on a public forum it may not be all that wise to say;

• First let me say that the prosperity message has been abused, but not to the extent as some proclaim. There a very few preachers that are stealing from people. Usually the ones who are you have never even heard of.
• There is nothing bad in the defintion of prosperity.
• I like it how it is. Don't know any well known ministers currently who are Word of Faith doing things unscriptual.
• etc, etc

For many of us the wof/prosperity message is a cancer within the church and nothing else so you will need to be aware that when you make definitive statements about the supposed credibility of the primary wof/prosperity celebrities (and in such a glaring manner) that you will undoubtedly come in for some well deserved flack; as such, you would be better off targeting a specific and much smaller area which can be better defended, even if you have to use a smokescreen to do so but this can be an effect tool when the broader issue cannot be rationally defended.

As for Creflo Dollar, I first came across this information in charisma magazine and I did go to some secular links and even the one that probinson linked to and it seems that the police found some solid enough grounds to lay charges against Dollar. So it seems that Creflo Dollar has been unable to apply this ‘faith’ to his own family, which is sort of the point of your topic isn’t it. I grant that if this had been a credible ministry then I would have been both shocked and disappointed by this type of behaviour but as it was from a wof/prosperity celebrity then it came as no surprise as most of them seem to live one life on a Sunday and another during the week – one that is built on human greed and selfishness.

I do support a standard which can involve tough-love but one would have thought that as Dollar is always talking about the benefits of applying faith, or at least faith in one’s own faith, then his version of that faith should have first been evident within his own family - again the point of your topic.

The picture of Dollars palatial home and estate that was shown on myfoxatlanta.com should at least enable Dollar and his daughter to live in together which I gather is a requirement that the judge stipulated and as the home is so large I suspect that they will only come across each other once a week – what a massive home!

Wow…do you mean that he gained all that wealth by merely having a side job on his day off – maybe I should buy his book!

No one is responding!...maybe I'm reading the wrong articles - which was raised by charisma magazine itself.

It seem that you are failing to appreciate that when children see their dad preaching one thing on a Sunday and living a life during the week that is in stark contrast, then this can and certainly does create problems within the family unit, simply family life 101. Again, this relates directly to your topic - the one which you raised.

My post is fine and I can defend it.

First the prosperity message isn't a Word of Faith so to speak message. It is part of your name: the Full Gospel. It is a legitable message as healing or the gifts of the Spirit. The Bible has much to say about it. And other besides Word of Faith teach it. The difference is people because of attackd from media don't want to use the word prosperity. They just say things like, "a better life; wholeness; peace; excell; ect."

As for catching flack about certain ministers, no worry here. Their fruit speaks for itself. Very few of you have actually listened to more than a 10 minute YouTube clip takes out on context. Creflo is a excellent teacher in the Body of Christ. I am not a gambler, but if I was, I wouldn't mind wagering that he has not taught things about prosperity that is wrong. He is very sound in this subject. You just don't like him, you can tell.

As for him being posted in a magazine. So!!! Charisma hasn't called him guilty. Secondly even if they slanted it and said he was, that doesn't make it gospel. Dr. Dollar has several businesses that you obviously no nothing about. No one said he made all his money from books, even though he is a best selling author. Anyways I am not going to get into that further because again it irrelvant to the fact that prosperity is good and that most Christians who speak against it practice it and desire it.

As for the message being cancer, that is crazy. LOL. . Whatever. the church has more money, is reaching more people, has fulfilled more goals, empowered people, and showed more excellence than ever in the history of the Church. Nobody has ever been affected negatively by the message. People have run ship wreck who were involved, but that is with every movement, denomination, and doctrine. Some people just do things wrong. Teaching people how to better there lives and hpow to thrive is good!!!

 

[MinJeremiah]

Yes, we know that there is an intense and bitter hatred here of anything "WoF" by some people.

It's sad, however, that you can call my beliefs a "cancer" and not even think twice about it. If I cared about your opinion, I might be offended.

But luckily, I don't.

Glory to God!!! Good thing is God is blessing the message, the leaders, and the people for being faithful to it. Our people are getting healed of cancer also.

 

[Biblicist]

Yes, we know that there is an intense and bitter hatred here of anything "WoF" by some people.

It's sad, however, that you can call my beliefs a "cancer" and not even think twice about it. If I cared about your opinion, I might be offended.

But luckily, I don't.

When it comes to “not even thinking twice about your beliefs”, can you imagine that someone such as myself who entered into the Full Gospel movement through the Charismatic renewal of the 70’s that I have not had at least one or two thoughts regarding the distinctive teachings of the wof movement particularly as I have watched many people who have adopted these distinctive teachings who have crashed and burned!

Having watched numerous wof practitioners travel through our churches here in Australia with nothing to show for their ministry but hype and flashy lights I have certainly had a few thoughts about them over the decades. Did I have a few thoughts for the father who prayed over his dead sons body for three days in the hope that he would be risen from the dead which caused untold grief to his wife and daughters and I certainly had some thoughts for a friend who is a Pentecostal minister who has refused to seek medical help for a condition that is killing him, again to the utter dismay of his wife and children, along with his friends and congregation members.

Need I mention the many individuals who have been conned out of their money by the numerous wof/prosperity teachers over the years along with the others who have carelessly failed to seek simple medical help for their children as they had ‘faith in their own faith’ – yes I have certainly thought well and hard on the issues that have been perpetrated onto the Body of Christ by numerous wof celebrities.

Now to the matter at hand...

For those of us who have been in the Lord for a few years and particularly within the Full Gospel movement, we would be well aware of the incredible chasm that exists between those who are wof proponents and with those who are not. When it comes to general doctrine as with ecclesiology and Pneumatology, I can relish indepth discussions in these and other areas and can agree to disagree with those who hold to differing opinions. Things certainly change when it comes to the toxic teachings that originate from the prominent leaders of the wof movement as their tares have wreaked havoc within the Body of Christ for decades and when someone posts a topic that is so outrageous it can be hard to simply sit back and allow the numerous naive comments to remain unchallenged.

With my first few posts I tried to suggest that Miadog show some wisdom by not posting such outlandish statements that I ‘m sure would make even the most mature rank-and-file woffer cringe but it seems that more were added with each successive post; maybe they should be posted in the wof forum as they may or may not go unchallenged which is an area that others including myself do not post in; I also do not post in the Roman Catholic charismatic forum – too many scary topics.

Hopefully the more mature wof proponents will encourage the less experienced woffers to display some wisdom by not making statements that will make any reasoned believer cringe and they need to be aware that a large portion of the Full Gospel movement is thoroughly repulsed by the distinctive teachings of the numerous wof celebrities and of course the same goes for the Latter-rain and NARzie distinctive doctrines as well.

Even though I hold the vast majority (if not all) of the major wof/prosperity celebrities in complete scorn, I well appreciate that many of their followers are people of good will who try to do what is right and with such people I have little problem. Where I do have problems is when people post material that is so outrageous that it defies any semblance of logic, maybe most of these people are simply new in the Lord and have yet to come out from under the influence of their leaders; but I am sadly all too well aware that there are also many wof rank-and-filers who are simply content to be conned and to have their ears tickled by the latest wof/prosperity celebrity ...all too well aware.

So this is my position which is probably very little different to that of many thousands of others.

 

[MinJeremiah]

untTE=Biblicist;60894091]When it comes to “not even thinking twice about your beliefs”, can you imagine that someone such as myself who entered into the Full Gospel movement through the Charismatic renewal of the 70’s that I have not had at least one or two thoughts regarding the distinctive teachings of the wof movement particularly as I have watched many people who have adopted these distinctive teachings who have crashed and burned!

Having watched numerous wof practitioners travel through our churches here in Australia with nothing to show for their ministry but hype and flashy lights I have certainly had a few thoughts about them over the decades. Did I have a few thoughts for the father who prayed over his dead sons body for three days in the hope that he would be risen from the dead which caused untold grief to his wife and daughters and I certainly had some thoughts for a friend who is a Pentecostal minister who has refused to seek medical help for a condition that is killing him, again to the utter dismay of his wife and children, along with his friends and congregation members.

Need I mention the many individuals who have been conned out of their money by the numerous wof/prosperity teachers over the years along with the others who have carelessly failed to seek simple medical help for their children as they had ‘faith in their own faith’ – yes I have certainly thought well and hard on the issues that have been perpetrated onto the Body of Christ by numerous wof celebrities.

Now to the matter at hand...

For those of us who have been in the Lord for a few years and particularly within the Full Gospel movement, we would be well aware of the incredible chasm that exists between those who are wof proponents and with those who are not. When it comes to general doctrine as with ecclesiology and Pneumatology, I can relish indepth discussions in these and other areas and can agree to disagree with those who hold to differing opinions. Things certainly change when it comes to the toxic teachings that originate from the prominent leaders of the wof movement as their tares have wreaked havoc within the Body of Christ for decades and when someone posts a topic that is so outrageous it can be hard to simply sit back and allow the numerous naive comments to remain unchallenged.

With my first few posts I tried to suggest that Miadog show some wisdom by not posting such outlandish statements that I ‘m sure would make even the most mature rank-and-file woffer cringe but it seems that more were added with each successive post; maybe they should be posted in the wof forum as they may or may not go unchallenged which is an area that others including myself do not post in; I also do not post in the Roman Catholic charismatic forum – too many scary topics.

Hopefully the more mature wof proponents will encourage the less experienced woffers to display some wisdom by not making statements that will make any reasoned believer cringe and they need to be aware that a large portion of the Full Gospel movement is thoroughly repulsed by the distinctive teachings of the numerous wof celebrities and of course the same goes for the Latter-rain and NARzie distinctive doctrines as well.

Even though I hold the vast majority (if not all) of the major wof/prosperity celebrities in complete scorn, I well appreciate that many of their followers are people of good will who try to do what is right and with such people I have little problem. Where I do have problems is when people post material that is so outrageous that it defies any semblance of logic, maybe most of these people are simply new in the Lord and have yet to come out from under the influence of their leaders; but I am sadly all too well aware that there are also many wof rank-and-filers who are simply content to be conned and to have their ears tickled by the latest wof/prosperity celebrity ...all too well aware.

So this is my position which is probably very little different to that of many thousands of others.[/quote]

This is the perfect place to post because the point to prove is that even those outside the Word of Faith really do follow prosperity.

I think your not able to debate the message with scripture. Everything you have said beginning with your first post is a attack on people and baseless judging. Example: you talk about people not going to doctors or taking children to doctors. That has nothing to do with Word of Faith. The faith message doesn't teach that. It does support individual right from as political and legal stand point. The not going to doctors because of faith comes from Pentecostals and Apostolic many years before the faith movement. Faith teachers where the ones who brought balance to healing and said to go to doctors and take medicine until healing is manifested. You don't really understand the message. Example 2: you call Word of Faith leaders tares. Wow!!! You are super disrespectful. If I posted what I wanna say about that I would get suspended on here. I will just say your out of line in more ways than one.

People crashing.... Christians crash all the time. I don't care the subject or denomination. Folks crash all time. You don't judge the Word by peoples experience. You judge peoples experience by the Word. And until you stop working and stop pursuing a good quality of life don't tell me or anyone your against prosperity.