OEC and YEC Discussion

[LoG]

ASSUMING the flood was global, the water would have covered all the earth. How could the water have subsided? The only way would be for the ocean basins to sink and the mountains rise up. This would have involved major changes in the mountains. The post-flood mountains would have been vastly different to the pre-flood mountains, and may be much higher than a "mountain" before the flood. The landscape today is completely different than that before the flood. Just because mountains existed before the flood does not mean that they were the same mountains.

You are assuming that the present water levels are the same as they were pre-flood but it has been proven that that isn't the case The water levels were substantially lower back then. The Basins did sink since the "waters of the deep" were no longer there and forced the ocean floor lower since there were cavities underneath.
Being that the various mountain ranges around the world show different ages, you are engaging in a lot of unsubstantiated speculation.

This is a theory based on pure speculation, and was coined by Custance in his book "without form and void". Custance KNEW that the translation of hayah as "en" contradicted the gap theory, and came up with a far-fetched theory as to why this might have occurred. This theory is PURE SPECULATION and exists ENTIRELY for the purpose of supporting the gap theory. There were two other points about the Septuagint translation I made in a previous post, that also clearly show the Septuagint translators did not allow room for a gap, whatever explanations are proposed for their translation of hayah.

Assuming you have read thew links I supplied, you know that the Gap theory has been around a long time. Custance is only a recent proponent of the theory.
The Septuagint is a version which is not supported by many today and certainly does not line up well with the Masoretic texts in a number of areas. You appear to be emphasizing that translation solely to refute the idea of a Gap and yet it is the only translation were a Gap is not readily apparent however at the start of this thread there are references to other verses in the bible that hint at previous worlds.

 

[Jadis40]

I'm not following here. To me, neither story does much to inform the discussion about old earth/young earth.

1) the sealed cave ecosystem -- totally cool! I love the variety of life that the Lord has made. I'm a bit saddened by one comment -- that they may have seriously damaged the ecosystem by introducing different air (oxygen) when they went in.

In any case, I don't see what this has to do with old earth/young earth. There are many articles about the flaws in any dating mechanism, so without more detail its hard to discuss the reported "age" of the finding. In fact, I think a powerful argument could be made that this finding actually supports the young earth / global flood view. Consider a pocket cave (YEC would say created by the flood) filled with animals that can create a symbiotic ecosystem. Is it more reasonable to believe that cave existed like this for a few thousand years or for millions of years?

2) The meteor could very well have been how the Lord punctured the water canopy of the earth and set off the global flood, as well as causing tectonic stress that opened the water from under the surface, etc. No problem here. Again, ages are dependent on the dating systems, and would require a lot more data to even start to discuss intelligently. One point of YECs like me is that there are known BIG problems with the various age determination techniques -- something commonly glossed over by the media and many scientists.
-lee-

The water canopy NEVER existed - there's several pages documenting why it's an impossiblility - below is just a quote from part of that page, which refutes YEC AND the global flood.

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/canopy.html

Air can hold, at most, 55 grams of water per cubic meter. In contrast, liquid water is at a density of 1,000,000 grams per cubic meter. The ratio of the two numbers is 1:18,000. Therefore, a flood of 1 mile thickness (which would cover only 1/5 of Mount Everest), would require 18,000 miles of canopy. Besides the problem of gravity (which would bring the whole thing down), such a thick layer of water would completely block any light from the Sun from reaching the earth.

(The stars were visible on earth from day 4 - if you hold to a literal 6 day 24-hour period, but I still believe that the overwhelming majority of scientific findings confirms that the earth is older than 6,000 years. Besides that, I majored in history in college, and the YEC timeline doesn't hold up at all to the historical record. Especially not with skeletal finds such as Kennewick Man in Washington state which dates back to 9400 years.)

Even a canopy of only 40 feet of liquid water would double the earth's atmospheric pressure, which would kill many animals, including humans. This pressure would also increase the temperature on the earth to a scorching 220°F. Most animals and plants do not survive long at this temperature.
Another problem is getting the water out of the atmosphere and onto the ground without cooking everything on the earth. Each gram of water vapor that condenses to a liquid releases 539 calories of heat. For a global water layer of only 40 feet deep, 6.22 x 1021 grams of water would release 3.35 x 1024 calories, raising the temperature of the earth to 810°F. Such a scenario would definitely kill all life on earth, but would produce a tremendous air conditioning problem for Noah. And a 40 feet deep flood would certainly not be global.

Here's something else from Wikipedia

PHYSICS OF THE VAPOR CANOPY

In order for the vapor canopy to explain a truly global flood covering the highest mountains (as apparently described in Genesis), the atmosphere would have had to have a composition of about 900 parts water vapor to one part of what we call air today. To prevent this from condensing, the temperature would have to be raised to the point where the partial pressure of water equals 900 atmospheres. This is equivalent to the surface of the planet having the same environment as a 13,000 psi boiler, completely inhospitable to any form of life.
Some creationists respond that the "vapor canopy" was composed not of vapor within the atmosphere, but of ice crystals above the atmosphere. (Morris's original proposal relied on water vapor, not ice.) Such a spherical shell of ice orbiting the earth above the atmosphere would not be physically stable.
Additionally, the fall of so great a quantity of ice (or of anything else) from so great a distance to the earth's surface would produce an enormous amount of heat converted from the gravitational potential energy of the ice. The consequence would have been not a flood but a poaching by superheated steam.

Basically, you'd be talking the same effect as Venus, and that canopy would have made life impossible.

Not even answersingenesis.org accepts the vapor canopy theory -

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/tools/flood-waters.asp

In addition, there's more than one crater on the face of the earth - the most famous one that comes to mind is Meteor Crater in Arizona, but there are others scattered over the globe. Also, when in the 6 days was the moon, mercury, the earth, and other planetary bodies bombarded by meteors, the evidence of which is still plainly visable, especially in the case of Mercury and our Moon?

 

[laptoppop]

Problem as I see it is that the wave action effects the surface of the water. A flood that covered the tops of the mountains would only have affected the ground underneath as the waters were rising.

There were a ton of things all happening at once with the flood. Rain for the first time, water from underground -- it is quite reasonable to assume that there were large earthquake events, volcanic activity, it seems like the planet was ringing like a bell (hmmmmm, sounds a lot like asteroid strike(s) )

It is not just the wave action from a flood that does anything. The billions of tons of water weight can be assumed to do things as well. The currents of a flood are not just on the surface, they extend throughout the water, and can move in multiple directions at different layers, etc. The size and scope of this event must not be minimized. Also, as the Lord opened (however He did it, whatever He used) the water from underground, there would be huge changes in pressure and huge new gaps that could have collapsed or any number of things.

The links you supplied pointed out that the Ark would have been in danger had the waves exceeded 47 meters. Waves much larger than that would have been required to account for the strata and other evidence as it is today. It would have required one Tsunami after another across the face the Earth, not a year long flood.

You are persisting in thinking of the flood as a homogenous event. Even "small" localized floods are not the same over the scope of the flood, what reason would we to have to think that a global flood would be? Different areas of the flood, different locations on the earth, would have different levels of activity.

Lol, just seeing if you were awake.

<grin> Actually, I have to thank you for that one. I hadn't heard that raised before and I had to go out and look for an answer. It wasn't hard to find, but I love being challenged!

According to Jasher it was completed in 5 years.

Interesting. Again - you sent me to research. A quick check of Genesis -- it seems like the 100 year figure quoted often comes from inference, not stated fact in Genesis. Noah was 500, he had sons, the Lord talked to him. Noah was 600, the flood came. At first glance, it does not seem to do violence to the text to say there could be a few years of activity between Noah being 500 and when he started building.

However -- 5 years? Unless Noah hired a ton of people -- no way. I've seen different estimates, one of the more common estimates is about 1.6 million board feet of wood required for the ark. 5 years and just Noah's family -- doesn't seem plausible. Sorry Jasher, I'll stick with the implications of Scripture. Also, I'm not done looking -- there may well be more support than what I've seen or recognized.

I hope it isn't getting too far off-topic, but I give some credence to the theory that one of the big reasons for the wholesale action of a global flood was satanic corruption of the gene pool in an attempt to thwart God's plan for the saving messiah. If so, Noah would hardly be asking the "people" around him to help build God's project.

Thanks for a great discussion!
-lee-

 

[laptoppop]

You are assuming that the present water levels are the same as they were pre-flood but it has been proven that that isn't the case The water levels were substantially lower back then. The Basins did sink since the "waters of the deep" were no longer there and forced the ocean floor lower since there were cavities underneath.

Huh? How does postulating mechanisms for generating mountains have any bearing on whether the water levels are the same? I don't follow your reasoning there. The Word says the mountains that were there were covered with water. We're speculating on the exact ways the waters dissapated and how equilibrium was restored to the system.

Being that the various mountain ranges around the world show different ages, you are engaging in a lot of unsubstantiated speculation.

Different dates on mountains. Because a YEC typically believes that most, if not virtually all of the fossil record occured at the time of the flood - it is encumbent on the YEC to be able to address dating methodologies. First, it is crucial to understand that almost all dating is done using "index fossils" -- particular fossils which are used as time markers and which are assumed to have existed only during particular time periods. So, yes, the "date" on the strata matches the assumed date of the fossil which is used to date the strata which confirms the date of the index fossil.... classic circular reasoning. The various other tests are too expensive, too complicated, and give widely varying results -- so people don't like to use them. They also (depending on the method) make huge assumptions that can often be challenged -- we'd have to talk about each one, and look at its strengths and weaknesses.

Assuming you have read thew links I supplied, you know that the Gap theory has been around a long time. Custance is only a recent proponent of the theory.
The Septuagint is a version which is not supported by many today and certainly does not line up well with the Masoretic texts in a number of areas. You appear to be emphasizing that translation solely to refute the idea of a Gap and yet it is the only translation were a Gap is not readily apparent however at the start of this thread there are references to other verses in the bible that hint at previous worlds.

I'll concede that the theory has been around (typically proposed by a very small minority) for some time. Like I said, I'm fascinated by it, but I don't see any reason to believe it, and there are major theological problems (such as death before the fall), and evidentiary problems with it.

Enough on the Septuagint! The only reasons it is interesting are 1) it shows an ancient perspective, 2) it was THE Greek translation around the time of Jesus - very commonly used - very respected at the time. We're going down a whole different path if we want to start talking about what use it has now. (I *do* see one particular use -- the date for the Septuagint translation has been solidly documented, and it puts a solid stake in the ground that the prophetic Scriptures relating to Jesus were in existence way before He was on this earth.) We can agree that its better to go directly from the original language, using the best texts available, when producing a translation. Scholars spend their entire carreers discussing what the "best" texts are, so I suggest we leave that for another forum.
Thanks!
-lee-

 

[LoG]

(hmmmmm, sounds a lot like asteroid strike(s) )-------------------------------------------

The size and scope of this event must not be minimized. Also, as the Lord opened (however He did it, whatever He used) the water from underground, there would be huge changes in pressure and huge new gaps that could have collapsed or any number of things.

I tend to believe that it was more likely the result of the close proximity of a large astral body rather than an actual strike. The gravitational forces would account for the rupturing of the "fountains of the deep" and we would also have a source for the" opening of the windows of heaven". See Velikovski for that particular model.

You are persisting in thinking of the flood as a homogenous event. Even "small" localized floods are not the same over the scope of the flood, what reason would we to have to think that a global flood would be? Different areas of the flood, different locations on the earth, would have different levels of activity.

My reason for thinking it as being a homogenous event is that water has a tendency to distribute the forces acting on it across its entire surface as can be seen in your fish tank experiment. As the water level rises the stratafication of the bottom becomes less pronounced and the various forces acting on the total volume tend to work more on the surface than in the depths.

However -- 5 years? Unless Noah hired a ton of people -- no way. I've seen different estimates, one of the more common estimates is about 1.6 million board feet of wood required for the ark. 5 years and just Noah's family -- doesn't seem plausible. Sorry Jasher, I'll stick with the implications of Scripture. Also, I'm not done looking -- there may well be more support than what I've seen or recognized.

I see, so you think that over in Egypt they were capable of building pyramids that we with today's technology are still incapable of duplicating, while Noah and sons were slugging it out with stone hammers and chisels?

I hope it isn't getting too far off-topic, but I give some credence to the theory that one of the big reasons for the wholesale action of a global flood was satanic corruption of the gene pool in an attempt to thwart God's plan for the saving messiah. If so, Noah would hardly be asking the "people" around him to help build God's project.

I believe the same about the satanic corruption but this also gives credence to the idea of previous creations and a much older earth.

 

[sjdennis]

According to Jasher it was completed in 5 years.

Very interesting, I didn't know that. We must remember that Jasher is non-canonical, so not necessarily correct. But assuming it is correct, this would mean that Noah must have hired extra labour, it would have been hard for his sons and him to do it alone in this time. Doesn't mean anything much for the debate, but is an interesting point. Thanks for that.

 

[sjdennis]

Enough on the Septuagint! The only reasons it is interesting are 1) it shows an ancient perspective, 2) it was THE Greek translation around the time of Jesus - very commonly used - very respected at the time. We're going down a whole different path if we want to start talking about what use it has now. (I *do* see one particular use -- the date for the Septuagint translation has been solidly documented, and it puts a solid stake in the ground that the prophetic Scriptures relating to Jesus were in existence way before He was on this earth.) We can agree that its better to go directly from the original language, using the best texts available, when producing a translation. Scholars spend their entire carreers discussing what the "best" texts are, so I suggest we leave that for another forum.

Fair enough, we have discussed that one enough now. The Septuagint only shows that the translators at that time did not believe in a Gap, that is all, it does not indicate whether a gap truly existed or not.

Based on the Hebrew text then, what area most interests everyone here (especially Lion of God)? The meaning of the word "and", "was", "asa" & "bara", "tohu" & "bohu" other scriptures (not Genesis 1)...? There are so many points that could be made about the original Hebrew texts that I would rather find out where people's interest lies, before writing a long-winded post on something noone is interested in anyway.

 

[sjdennis]

Assuming you have read the links I supplied, you know that the Gap theory has been around a long time. Custance is only a recent proponent of the theory.

I did read the links, and know that Custance is only a recent proponent of the theory. It has existed since uniformatirian geology was invented in the 18th and 19th centuries. I pointed out that a particular argument about a section of the LXX text was invented by Custance, not that the whole theory was. Custance has just published probably the most well-researched defence of the theory in recent years, he is not it's inventor.

This does not invalidate in any way any point that I have made about the LXX text.

 

[LoG]

Huh? How does postulating mechanisms for generating mountains have any bearing on whether the water levels are the same? I don't follow your reasoning there. The Word says the mountains that were there were covered with water. We're speculating on the exact ways the waters dissapated and how equilibrium was restored to the system.

My point was whether there was a need for mountain generating mechanisms since I was getting the impression that it was only necessary from a YEC perspective to account for the flood water dissipation.

Different dates on mountains. Because a YEC typically believes that most, if not virtually all of the fossil record occured at the time of the flood - it is encumbent on the YEC to be able to address dating methodologies. First, it is crucial to understand that almost all dating is done using "index fossils" -- particular fossils which are used as time markers and which are assumed to have existed only during particular time periods. So, yes, the "date" on the strata matches the assumed date of the fossil which is used to date the strata which confirms the date of the index fossil.... classic circular reasoning.

Even without Fossil or radiometric dating methods it is readily apparent that the different mountain ranges are different ages due to their weathering. If all were born at or shortly after the flood the weathering would be roughly the same and yet that isn't the case.

I'll concede that the theory has been around (typically proposed by a very small minority) for some time. Like I said, I'm fascinated by it, but I don't see any reason to believe it, and there are major theological problems (such as death before the fall), and evidentiary problems with it.

Please see here for answer to the Death before Fall aspect.

Evidentiary problems? Could you expand on that?

 

[sjdennis]

Even without Fossil or radiometric dating methods it is readily apparent that the different mountain ranges are different ages due to their weathering. If all were born at or shortly after the flood the weathering would be roughly the same and yet that isn't the case.

This sounds interesting. Can you provide a reference for it?

The claim that the weathering would be roughly the same in YEC isn't strictly true, as it depends on the rock type, the structure of the mountains (slope steepness etc) and the climatic conditions (wind, glaciation, water erosion, frost heave etc). Mountain ranges would have started in different conditions and locations, so would look different now. But I would be interested in seeing a scientific paper on this.

 

[LoG]

This sounds interesting. Can you provide a reference for it?

I learned that in Geography 101 so no specific links I'm afraid. The various mountain ranges around the world show different amounts of weathering and erosion from which it can be deduced that some are older or younger. Even large rounded hills are often the remains of ancient mountains. ie, the Scottish Highlands, Appalachian Mountains, etc. If all these mountains formed during or shortly after the Flood, they should show fairly consistent weathering taking into account local weather conditions etc. In reality some mountains appear to be significantly older than others like the Rockies and the Himalayans.

Another interesting thing I ran across yesterday is fossil graveyards. It is not something you hear much about because for the Evolutionists they are a bit of a problem as they show a lack of Uniformatism as well as throwing together fossil remains of species that were not supposed to exist in the same time period. As I was reading the different sites describing these graveyards and the type of species they were finding in them, it struck me that none of them made any reference to human remains. This is significant imo. It is speculated that the pre-flood population could easily have been several hundred million people (possibly billions) and yet there is no sign of them.

These graveyards shows sign of megafauna being thrown together so violently that many were dismembered in the process. Not something that sounds reasonable from a heavy rainfall and a fountain of the deep turned on in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, thousands of miles from where some of these graveyards are. The catastrophy that would do that is on the order of tidal waves, not a flood.

Gap theory says this was an extinction event of a previous creation that ended approximately 10,000 years ago leaving the Earth without form and void.

references:http://www.custance.org/Library/Volume4/Part_I/chapter10.html
or do a Google search for Fossil graveyards

 

[Jadis40]

I learned that in Geography 101 so no specific links I'm afraid. The various mountain ranges around the world show different amounts of weathering and erosion from which it can be deduced that some are older or younger. Even large rounded hills are often the remains of ancient mountains. ie, the Scottish Highlands, Appalachian Mountains, etc. If all these mountains formed during or shortly after the Flood, they should show fairly consistent weathering taking into account local weather conditions etc. In reality some mountains appear to be significantly older than others like the Rockies and the Himalayans.

Another interesting thing I ran across yesterday is fossil graveyards. It is not something you hear much about because for the Evolutionists they are a bit of a problem as they show a lack of Uniformatism as well as throwing together fossil remains of species that were not supposed to exist in the same time period. As I was reading the different sites describing these graveyards and the type of species they were finding in them, it struck me that none of them made any reference to human remains. This is significant imo. It is speculated that the pre-flood population could easily have been several hundred million people (possibly billions) and yet there is no sign of them.

These graveyards shows sign of megafauna being thrown together so violently that many were dismembered in the process. Not something that sounds reasonable from a heavy rainfall and a fountain of the deep turned on in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, thousands of miles from where some of these graveyards are. The catastrophy that would do that is on the order of tidal waves, not a flood.

Gap theory says this was an extinction event of a previous creation that ended approximately 10,000 years ago leaving the Earth without form and void.

references:http://www.custance.org/Library/Volume4/Part_I/chapter10.html
or do a Google search for Fossil graveyards

10,000 years ago - you're talking about the end of the Ice Age, aren't you?
I live in northeastern Indiana, and the geological proof from the retreat of the Wisconsin glaciation that used to cover this part of the globe is all over the place, especially with all the lakes just northwest of where I live, along with Minnesota (The Land of 10,000 Lakes), Michigan and Wisconsin. Not to mention the largest collection of freshwater found on the planet - the Great Lakes. The soil where I live is a lot like clay with other material worked into, whereas the soil at our lake cottage is a lot sandier with some other soil mixed in. It's only about an hour away, but the difference in the soil types is rather striking. What I found to be rather interesting is the extent of ice age, and the extent that it affected Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_glaciation

Here's something I dug up regarding The Great Black Swamp which stretched from New Haven, IN clear over to what is now Toledo, OH. This swamp covered an area about the size of the state of Connecticut. If you've heard of Bowling Green State University, well, that school is built over what used to be a pretty nasty swamp. I have a degree in history, so things like this fascinate me to no end

http://users.ipfw.edu/zeppp/Nature/swamp.html

a little more in depth story is here:

http://www.limaohio.com/special/ggg.php

 

[LoG]

a little more in depth story is here:

http://www.limaohio.com/special/ggg.php

Quite a history Jadis. Makes one wonder why they continued trying to develop the area.

 

[sjdennis]

I learned that in Geography 101 so no specific links I'm afraid. The various mountain ranges around the world show different amounts of weathering and erosion from which it can be deduced that some are older or younger. Even large rounded hills are often the remains of ancient mountains. ie, the Scottish Highlands, Appalachian Mountains, etc. If all these mountains formed during or shortly after the Flood, they should show fairly consistent weathering taking into account local weather conditions etc. In reality some mountains appear to be significantly older than others like the Rockies and the Himalayans.

Here is where my poor geographical knowledge comes into play and i have to concede that although I know someone would be able to address this issue, that person is not me!

Another interesting thing I ran across yesterday is fossil graveyards. It is not something you hear much about because for the Evolutionists they are a bit of a problem as they show a lack of Uniformatism as well as throwing together fossil remains of species that were not supposed to exist in the same time period. As I was reading the different sites describing these graveyards and the type of species they were finding in them, it struck me that none of them made any reference to human remains. This is significant imo. It is speculated that the pre-flood population could easily have been several hundred million people (possibly billions) and yet there is no sign of them.

As I recall, there is no mention of primates or other fast animals either. Fossil graveyards would be most likely formed from animals that existed in large numbers, and were rapidly overtaken by water - dinosaurs, large mammals etc. Dinosaur graveyards are not uncommon. Fast-moving climbing creatures such as primates and Man would have been able to escape the flood waters until the last possible moment - up mountains, clinging to driftwood etc - and the possibility of them being buried together would be much more remote.

These graveyards shows sign of megafauna being thrown together so violently that many were dismembered in the process. Not something that sounds reasonable from a heavy rainfall and a fountain of the deep turned on in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, thousands of miles from where some of these graveyards are. The catastrophy that would do that is on the order of tidal waves, not a flood.

I would have thought a flood would have created heaps of tidal waves etc - remember a tidal wave can travel across the Pacific ocean in a matter or hours, they are not just a local event. The hydroplate model (which I believe you are referring to) actually makes the main fountain of the great deep along both the mid-Atlantic ridge and the Pacific trench - right around the world. Tidal waves from this (and all the other volcanoes, earthquakes that probably occurred) could have gone across the world in a matter of hours. And they would have carried fossils AWAY from the mid-atlantic ridge, quite consistent with your observations.

Of course, the hydroplate model is only one model of the flood mechanism. A flood would easily make fossil graveyards. I assume you would assign these fossil graveyards to the Gap theory's proposed Flood of Lucifer, before Gen 1:2. This would also mean the graveyards were formed under flood conditions. So I don't see how any of this can point away from a global flood of Noah - Noah's flood could quite easily have produced these graveyards.

 

[laptoppop]

I never said that there were no regions of violent activity -- certainly there were, as in any flood. Such regions easily account for fossil graveyards. The flood also easily handles cases where layers are "out of order" (quite common, actually), or "interstitial" fossils where a tree for example goes right through multiple layers.

If you attribute the fossil record to a gap flood, then you have the problem of accounting for the evidence of Noah's flood.
-lee-