OC division or unity with the RCC?

[HardHead]

I can't play the piano.

 

[BobRyan]

Albion said: ↑
The RCC and EO do definitely disagree with each other on a number of important doctrines.

Which doctrines?

That big whopping thing about the supremacy of the Pope -- for one.

Apparently they teach that the various heads of the various OC and the Pope are all co-equal

 

[GingerBeer]

the supremacy of the Pope

That is not a big thing, it is an organisational thing. Like Anglicans having bishops and Seventh day Adventists not.

 

[BobRyan]

That is not a big thing, it is an organisational thing. Like Anglicans having bishops and Seventh day Adventists not.

Except that the RCC had a pretty firm rule about nobody being saved or included in the Body of Christ if they did not accept the supremacy of pontifex maximus -

 

[GingerBeer]

Except that the RCC had a pretty firm rule about nobody being saved or included in the Body of Christ if they did not accept the supremacy of pontifex maximus -

I've seen that claim before but Catholics say it is not true while pointing out that the document that makes an assertion that can be construed that way needs to be read in the context of its times when there was - in the west - only one church.

 

[prodromos]

The Orthodox don't have a deep love for one another - witness the current dog fight in Ukraine between Russian oriented Orthodox and the new Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

This is a misrepresentation of the situation. Some Ukranians broke off from the Church for nationalistic reasons and went into schism, which is considered as worse than heresy because it is not rooted in error but pride. The schismatics, with the support of the national government, seized church buildings and otherwise persecuted the canonical church. This is not Orthodox vs. Orthodox but schismatics vs. Orthodox. Similarly in the Former Yugoslav Republic of 'Macedonia', the Communist government created a national 'Orthodox' Church which has persecuted the canonical Serbian Church. The so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' is not recognised by any other jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church. They are not in the Orthodox Church and neither are the Ukrainian schismatics, regardless of what Patriarch Bartholomew has stated. No one else recognises them and the Patriarch will eventually fall into line or risk being disciplined by the Church.

 

[GingerBeer]

This is a misrepresentation of the situation. Some Ukranians broke off from the Church for nationalistic reasons and went into schism

I am sure that is how you and many others see the matter but the Ukrainian Orthodox see it differently. They see themselves as self-governing and no longer under the Moscow Patriarch. Their perspective is supported by the Patriarch of Constantinople (Istanbul). Maybe they are right and you are wrong.

, which is considered as worse than heresy because it is not rooted in error but pride.

Perhaps Catholics see Orthodox as in schism. It does not appear to he helpful for people to label those who disagree with them as schismatics or heretics. Why not just note the disagreement and leave it there. The epithets don't clarify anything.

The schismatics, with the support of the national government, seized church buildings and otherwise persecuted the canonical church.

Persecuted? I imagine that Anglicans saw their seizure of Catholic properties as fully authorised by their government (King Henry VIII) and Lutherans likely say their seizure of Catholic buildings as normal and natural when the state changed religion. Why can't Ukraine do the same?

This is not Orthodox vs. Orthodox but schismatics vs. Orthodox. Similarly in the Former Yugoslav Republic of 'Macedonia', the Communist government created a national 'Orthodox' Church which has persecuted the canonical Serbian Church. The so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church' is not recognised by any other jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church. They are not in the Orthodox Church and neither are the Ukrainian schismatics, regardless of what Patriarch Bartholomew has stated. No one else recognises them and the Patriarch will eventually fall into line or risk being disciplined by the Church.

 

[Not David]

But then again, we could take almost any two denominations at random and find some areas of agreement. The RCC and EO do definitely disagree with each other on a number of important doctrines.

Still, I have observed a curious unwillingness on the part of members of both churches to criticize each other when Protestants are listening in. It might be interesting, some time, to explore the reasons for that.

An Orthodox/Catholic discussion is interested plus they are already attacked by Protestants most of the times in the Forums.

 

[Albion]

An Orthodox/Catholic discussion is interested plus they are already attacked by Protestants most of the times in the Forums.

I don't understand the first part of that, but I do find it strange that the Orthodox and RCC join forces when Protestants criticize one or the other of them.

It's not because there ARE no bitter disagreements on doctrinal matters existing between EO and RC...because the fact is that there certainly are.

 

[dzheremi]

Hey guys. Cool thread you've got going here.

 

[Albion]

That is not a big thing, it is an organisational thing.

Oh, brother.

 

[Not David]

I don't understand the first part of that, but I do find it strange that the Orthodox and RCC join forces when Protestants criticize one or the other of them.

It's not because there ARE no bitter disagreements on doctrinal matters existing between EO and RC...because the fact is that there certainly are.

With the exception of the 5 Solas, you even see Traditional Protestants defending them.

 

[Albion]

With the exception of the 5 Solas, you even see Traditional Protestants defending them.

I wish I knew exactly what that message is intended to say.

 

[ripple the car]

I've sort of given up debating this. We have way more in common than we tend to want to admit. It's not that big a deal. It's not.

Pretty soon, we'll all be worshipping in our basements, memorizing prayers and creeds, hiding our sacred artwork in compartments in our furniture, and making the sign of the Cross in private.

That sounds nuts, but it's likely.

Mary, Mother of Christ, pray for us.

 

[ripple the car]

Our Lady of Soufanieh, pray for us.

 

[Jonaitis]

"The Eastern Orthodox Church is opposed to the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy. While not denying that some form of primacy could exist for the Bishop of Rome, Orthodox Christians argue that the tradition of Rome's primacy in the early Church was not equivalent to the current doctrine of supremacy."

Orthodox definition of Catholicity:
"The test of authentic catholicity is adherence to the authority of the Church's Holy Tradition, and then to the witness of Sacred "Scripture", which is itself a product of the Church's aforementioned Holy Tradition. It is not defined by adherence to any particular See. It is the position of the Orthodox Church that it has never accepted the pope as de jure leader of the entire church. All bishops are equal "as Peter", therefore every church under every bishop (consecrated in apostolic succession) is fully complete (the original meaning of catholic)."
from: Eastern Orthodox opposition to papal supremacy - Wikipedia

RCC view -
Referring to the doctrine of Papal Supremacy the Catechism notes in paragraph 882, “the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." Paragraph 937 states, “"The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, 'supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls.'”
from Papal Supremacy in the Bible and Church Fathers

So then apparently -- two different denominations with different views on some doctrines.

Some very interesting details surface in the thread where this is posted

Listen carefully to the video from 1:13:00 to 1:15:00

I had thought the title was referring to the Old Covenant. I would be interested in their views (and the EO) of the Old Covenant and how it relates to the New Covenant.

 

[Jipsah]

So then apparently -- two different denominations with different views on some doctrines.

Now there's a revelation for ya.

 

[Jipsah]

I never understood what Constantine has to do with deciding who has supreme authority over the church. He was the Emperor of Rome not the Emperor of the church.

Constantine is a stock bogeyman for anti-romanist zealots.

 

[tampasteve]

MOD HAT ON

This thread is now permanently closed due to goading, flaming, snarky replies, etc.

MOD HAT OFF​