Observed Speciation

[Tomk80]

They are used in mating so they are not vestigials. period why do they have to be used for flying. what about pengiuns. are they vestigials.

I will repeat here what has already been said in the very post you quoted. I will type it in bold and italics, so you won't miss it again. Vestigal does not mean useless.

Your sentence 'they are used in mating so they are not vestigals' can only mean one of two things:
1. you are not reading what other people post, even though you quote them.
2. you are being extraordinarily dishonest.

Please tell me which one I should pick.

 

[caravelair]

They are used in mating so they are not vestigials.

did you even read what i wrote? vestigial does NOT mean "unused".

what about pengiuns. are they vestigials.

their wings are, yes.

 

[Imblessed]

I will repeat here what has already been said in the very post you quoted. I will type it in bold and italics, so you won't miss it again. Vestigal does not mean useless.

Your sentence 'they are used in mating so they are not vestigals' can only mean one of two things:
1. you are not reading what other people post, even though you quote them.
2. you are being extraordinarily dishonest.

Please tell me which one I should pick.

I will say this just because you say they are doesnt mean they are. Vestigial organs are not real so give it up. you can say it all you like but you can never prove it true because the fossils dont show muscle or tissue or anything that would prove other wise. because they are not used like other birds use them doesnt mean they where used in the past for flying. as in any other vestigial. They could have always been used they same way as now. And if they were used differently then the past it still doesnt prove they evovled from some other animal and were left. we have hair like monkeys or apes but so do rabbits or horses we have legs and stomachs and on and on but so what. Our tail bone is a tail so we came from cats or dogs or horses our ears have a piece that makes it rotate so do all the animals i just listed so what. every animal especially mammals all have the same basic features so what. They all have the same number of neck bones so what, are all mammals from one animal a reptile since this is what you believe even though all reptiles now have all the same features unique to them. I think you all a vaque to the point of dishonesty in many areas. Or exaggerate to the point of dishonesty. It doesnt matter if they are not used or less used they are not vestigials period.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

I will say this just because you say they are doesnt mean they are. Vestigial organs are not real so give it up. you can say it all you like but you can never prove it true because the fossils dont show muscle or tissue or anything that would prove other wise. because they are not used like other birds use them doesnt mean they where used in the past for flying. as in any other vestigial. They could have always been used they same way as now. And if they were used differently then the past it still doesnt prove they evovled from some other animal and were left. we have hair like monkeys or apes but so do rabbits or horses we have legs and stomachs and on and on but so what. Our tail bone is a tail so we came from cats or dogs or horses our ears have a piece that makes it rotate so do all the animals i just listed so what. every animal especially mammals all have the same basic features so what. They all have the same number of neck bones so what, are all mammals from one animal a reptile since this is what you believe even though all reptiles now have all the same features unique to them. I think you all a vaque to the point of dishonesty in many areas. Or exaggerate to the point of dishonesty. It doesnt matter if they are not used or less used they are not vestigials period.

This is a good example of the basic disrespect for science that anti-evolutionists have. With a mere waving of the hand this person dismisses all of comparative anatomy, paleontology, and zoology because evolution might be right. And admitting that possibility would be like kissing Hitler.

 

[Arikay]

Um, vestigial do exist, vestigial means something that used to be something else, it has nothing to do with whether it is used today.

So, you don't find it odd that we have tails just like monkeys they just happen to be turned off? You don't find it odd manatees have toenails under their skin, or that whales have back legs, etc?

You seem very quick to wave things away, why not try learning about them instead.

 

[Imblessed]

since this is observed speciation i would like to see how humans are speciated, since we are just evolved animals. Each race i would think is a species of its own or do we not fit under the discribtion of speciation and if not how did we get out of it. If we are still under this idea, why would a man like Hitler be wrong in his thinking, Since its about survival of the fittest and those that are strongest attract the femal for reproduction, we should incourage this so we may evolve better and become stronger. After all we are just animals and we should encourage the use of our intelligence to increase our strength and abilities to survive. If not then we will never evolve to anything else. If this is so why do we bother with it at all. Why is it important to know how and why and when things evolve. This type of science leads to what. It doesnt find knew cures for diseases or help the poor and sick, it doesnt help in morals which keep people in order, it doesnt help science figure anything out. Science is only good if it helps mankind become better in health and in making our environment better. But this is all useless if morals are not taught, where do we geet such morals. From religion. religion you believe is just a crutch because science is the only real proof of anything. Morals help keep order and honesty and virtue none of which evolution can teach.

 

[Imblessed]

This is a good example of the basic disrespect for science that anti-evolutionists have. With a mere waving of the hand this person dismisses all of comparative anatomy, paleontology, and zoology because evolution might be right. And admitting that possibility would be like kissing Hitler.

i have great respect for science but evolution doesnt deal with science it only trys to use science. Science is the research of how things work and how it will help us in the future, NOT how things in the past came to be, goo to you from the zoo. This teaches nothing important in life. its the same for you because if its wrong God exsists and you stand in judgement and its eternal which is much worse then haveing to kiss hitler.

 

[Arikay]

Wow, so many PRATT. I would really recomend learning about evolution before attacking it.

1) Humans are all part of 1 species.
2) We are "animals" and "Man" no matter where we came from.
3) Yes evolution has helped medicine. (http://www.christianforums.com/t97010-real-world-applications-of-evolutionary-biology.html)
4) Survival of the fittest is more complicated than just strength
5) Evolution does not teach morals, it teaches a scientific theory, it is not its fault is some people want to drag morals out of it.

(Are you now going to switch to a new PRATT list, or maybe consider learning more about things first)

 

[Tomk80]

i have great respect for science but evolution doesnt deal with science it only trys to use science. Science is the research of how things work and how it will help us in the future, NOT how things in the past came to be, goo to you from the zoo. This teaches nothing important in life. its the same for you because if its wrong God exsists and you stand in judgement and its eternal which is much worse then haveing to kiss hitler.

That what you think about science disagrees with what scientists think about science should have some alarm bells ringing in your head.

 

[Loudmouth]

i have great respect for science but evolution doesnt deal with science it only trys to use science. Science is the research of how things work and how it will help us in the future, NOT how things in the past came to be, goo to you from the zoo.

Sarfati fan, are we? Anyway, you have it backwards. Science is a method for accurately researching the natural world. We USE science to develop technologies such as nuclear power plants and medicine. The Theory of Evolution is an extension of the scientific method, an explanation that describes observations found within the natural world. Evolution is then used, as a tool, to develop ways to help mankind such as develop medicines and find the cause of genetic diseases.

This teaches nothing important in life. its the same for you because if its wrong God exsists and you stand in judgement and its eternal which is much worse then haveing to kiss hitler.

I think you will find many here who both accept the existence of God and evolution. Also, since when is science a good source for finding meaning in your life? Science is a method, a tool, not a philosophy.

 

[Alchemist]

i have great respect for science but evolution doesnt deal with science it only trys to use science.

Wrong. Evolution is science.

Science is the research of how things work and how it will help us in the future, NOT how things in the past came to be

The only way that we can help the future is by understanding the past.

...goo to you from the zoo.

If you think evolution tells us how how came about, then you are wrong. Evolution, as has been pointed out numerous times, does NOT say how life came about. That is abiogenesis! Have you read an evolution textbook?

This teaches nothing important in life.

If it wasn't for understanding of genetics and evolution, we would not have many of the medicines we have today, including all antibiotics except for penecillin (which no longer is effective against 99% of bacteria anyway).

its the same for you because if its wrong God exsists

Wrong. Even if evolution is wrong, it does not prove God exists. Evolution says nothing about God anyway, especially that He doesn't exist. If it did, no Christian would accept evolution, but most Christians do.

and you stand in judgement and its eternal which is much worse then haveing to kiss hitler.

Please, just because one accepts evolution does not make one 'stand in judgement'. According to the Bible, we all will stand in judgement; evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with this.

Peace,
Alchemist

 

[USincognito]

...goo to you from the zoo.

Rhyming is fun! Here's my go at Creationism.

A clod to a bod because of God.

How's that?

 

[Alchemist]

Rhyming is fun! Here's my go at Creationism.

A clod to a bod because of God.

How's that?

"I'm a poet and I don't know it..."

 

[Tomk80]

Rhyming is fun! Here's my go at Creationism.

A clod to a bod because of God.

How's that?

Nice

It is funny to see that you can pick out a person's favorite creationist by looking at the abiogenesis=evolution-strawman they produce.

 

[Imblessed]

Rhyming is fun! Here's my go at Creationism.

A clod to a bod because of God.

How's that?

I didnt make that one up i took it from a creation site. I like yours though. it doesnt offend me nore should what i said offend you it is what you believe. I know you all ovoid abiogenesis because it is not possible and makes you squirm becausse you have to decide how it all began. But its easier to ignore it. And if evolution is wrong there is only one other explination but as you and i have said you all would still find something else, most likely aliens did it. Im certain thats your backup when evolution fails. It proves its a faith based idea. because you said if it was wrong it still doesnt prove God. Even though its obvious it does. We all have opinions and i'm thankfull you all dont critize how I interpret evolution and or science showing evolution theory is not proven. Never mind you do think im ignorant and dont know how to read and study. But i've done the same so i'll quit trowing out my opinions and will try to be more scientific. Im proud to be a CLOD TO A BOD BECAUSE OF GOD AMEN PRAISE THE LORD I'M FREE

 

[Tomk80]

Really, how do people do it. So many misconceptions in one post.

I didnt make that one up i took it from a creation site.

That was painfully obvious.

I like yours though. it doesnt offend me nore should what i said offend you it is what you believe.

I know you all ovoid abiogenesis because it is not possible and makes you squirm becausse you have to decide how it all began. But its easier to ignore it.

Wrong. We do not avoid abiogenesis. When asked, every sensible evolutionist (be it christian or atheist) will tell you that we do not know how it happened, although we have some pretty strong guesses. The even more sensible will also tell you that we think abiogenesis is possible because humans are made up of the stuff all around us. There are no special atoms or 'life'-molecules in our bodies, as was once thought.

And if evolution is wrong there is only one other explination but as you and i have said you all would still find something else, most likely aliens did it. Im certain thats your backup when evolution fails.

Evolution cannot be wrong there, because evolution does not say anything about it. Can chemistry be wrong because it doesn't say how atoms came to exist. Of course not! Same with evolution. Evolution decribes how life changes, just as chemistry describes how molecules change configuration. It does not describe how life began, and thus cannot be wrong on this issue, just as chemistry cannot be wrong on how atoms came into existence. Seperate issues, sererate theories.

And most of us won't make up an 'aliens did it' explanation. A number of theistic evolutionists will maintain that god created life and evolution took of from there. Which is their good right, as we will never be able to tell conclusively how abiogenesis worked. As far as atheists go, a number of them will just say "I don't know", which is a very good answer if you don't know (wouldn't you agree).

It proves its a faith based idea. because you said if it was wrong it still doesnt prove God. Even though its obvious it does.

Well, it doesn't. Follow a logic course. That we are wrong does not automatically mean you are right. There might be a number of other explanations we haven't considered yet.

We all have opinions and i'm thankfull you all dont critize how I interpret evolution and or science showing evolution theory is not proven. Never mind you do think im ignorant and dont know how to read and study. But i've done the same so i'll quit trowing out my opinions and will try to be more scientific. Im proud to be a CLOD TO A BOD BECAUSE OF GOD AMEN PRAISE THE LORD I'M FREE

Good luck with your studies.

 

[The Seeker]

since this is observed speciation i would like to see how humans are speciated, since we are just evolved animals. Each race i would think is a species of its own or do we not fit under the discribtion of speciation and if not how did we get out of it. If we are still under this idea, why would a man like Hitler be wrong in his thinking, Since its about survival of the fittest and those that are strongest attract the femal for reproduction, we should incourage this so we may evolve better and become stronger. After all we are just animals and we should encourage the use of our intelligence to increase our strength and abilities to survive. If not then we will never evolve to anything else. If this is so why do we bother with it at all. Why is it important to know how and why and when things evolve. This type of science leads to what. It doesnt find knew cures for diseases or help the poor and sick, it doesnt help in morals which keep people in order, it doesnt help science figure anything out. Science is only good if it helps mankind become better in health and in making our environment better. But this is all useless if morals are not taught, where do we geet such morals. From religion. religion you believe is just a crutch because science is the only real proof of anything. Morals help keep order and honesty and virtue none of which evolution can teach.

1) Science is descripitve, not proscriptive
2) Evolution is not atheism
3) Since people of different "races" are not reproductively isolated from each other, they're obviously not different species.
4) Hitler's ideology was at least partialy based on Christian theology, even if he did justify some of it with a twisted misrepresentation of science.

 

[theywhosowintears]

It is my understanding that a transitional fossil has never been found... more info requested on "Speciation in the Fossil Record" duly requested.

My understanding of genetics is somewhat limited also my thoughts was that natural selection by itself makes no new things. Meaning in Speciation where one animal becomes a very similar animal (with no additional genetic material/less genetic material or an equal equal amount of genetic material) is possible. But a different animal (one with new 'data'/material that was not in its ancestor) is non possible.

Please address these comments, I will surely learn form you even if you cannot convert me from creationism I will at least learn right?


Peace

 

[caravelair]

It is my understanding that a transitional fossil has never been found...

you have been grossly misinformed!

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

My understanding of genetics is somewhat limited also my thoughts was that natural selection by itself makes no new things. Meaning in Speciation where one animal becomes a very similar animal (with no additional genetic material/less genetic material or an equal equal amount of genetic material) is possible. But a different animal (one with new 'data'/material that was not in its ancestor) is non possible.

what do you mean by "additional genetic material", specifically?

 

[theywhosowintears]

If anyone has read a book called "The Beak of the Finch - Evolution in real time" by Jonathan Weiner maybe you should read this book review... it is interesting at least.

Anyhow.

Looking forward to answers to above questions