Observed change in kinds.

[juvenissun]

Actually, there are some chimps that have been taught differently just to counter arguments like this, being taught sign language pretty much like a human child would.

Have you ever seen a bunch of chimps talked to each other with sign language? It would certain be something to see.

They do not use language other than the need of fighting, hunting, sleeping and mating. These are typical animal behaviors. They do not cook and they do not write.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Have you ever seen a bunch of chimps talked to each other with sign language? It would certain be something to see.

They do not use language other than the need of fighting, hunting, sleeping and mating. These are typical animal behaviors. They do not cook and they do not write.

I saw a video of them using sign language to talk to each other, it was neat.

They use the language to ask questions, like where things go.

Chimps have been taught to cook and to write. And considering how bad some people can be at either of these things, that's pretty impressive. Also, even in the wild some animals have shown impressive food preparation without any human involvement.

 

[USincognito]

Because I don't like to be in the same kind with them.

That's the beauty of science. It really doesn't care about your personal opinions/ like and wants.

Our relatedness to our cousins the chimps is demonstrated by science, not personal preference.

 

[juvenissun]

That's the beauty of science. It really doesn't care about your personal opinions/ like and wants.

Our relatedness to our cousins the chimps is demonstrated by science, not personal preference.

My science is better than your science.

 

[USincognito]

My science is better than your science.

Of course. Things that exist entirely in people's heads are always better than reality.

 

[juvenissun]

Of course. Things that exist entirely in people's heads are always better than reality.

My reality is better than your reality.

 

[[serious]]

Actually, there are some chimps that have been taught differently just to counter arguments like this, being taught sign language pretty much like a human child would.

Kanzi picked up sign language from videos of koko using it. Reseachers weren't even intending to teach him it.

 

[[serious]]

Have you ever seen a bunch of chimps talked to each other with sign language? It would certain be something to see.

They do not use language other than the need of fighting, hunting, sleeping and mating. These are typical animal behaviors. They do not cook and they do not write.

I haven't ever seen two people with normal hearing who speak the same language have an ASL conversation. Why would I expect to with other apes? They have their own communication which we don't fully understand. ASL is used because of physical differences in the vocal tract make it virtually impossible for them to make the sounds of our language. Some of them actually do vocalize the words as they sign, but they are distorted to the point that we can't easily understand them (people working closely with them for an extended period start getting an ear for them though).

As for them not cooking, you saw them toasting marshmallows. I believe Kanzi, that same one, has also cooked in a pan over the fire. I've heard of other apes, being kept as pets, making PB&Js and grilled cheese sandwiches for themselves and their owners. (keeping great apes as pets is a terrible idea by the way.)

When they didn't have their lexigram book handy, they have been observed writing the symbols for what they want.

 

[[serious]]

My reality is better than your reality.

This thread being an exception I imagine.

 

[juvenissun]

Kanzi picked up sign language from videos of koko using it. Reseachers weren't even intending to teach him it.

If it were that easy, then should we say that ALL chimps use sign language?
If not, why not?

 

[juvenissun]

I haven't ever seen two people with normal hearing who speak the same language have an ASL conversation. Why would I expect to with other apes? They have their own communication which we don't fully understand. ASL is used because of physical differences in the vocal tract make it virtually impossible for them to make the sounds of our language. Some of them actually do vocalize the words as they sign, but they are distorted to the point that we can't easily understand them (people working closely with them for an extended period start getting an ear for them though).

As for them not cooking, you saw them toasting marshmallows. I believe Kanzi, that same one, has also cooked in a pan over the fire. I've heard of other apes, being kept as pets, making PB&Js and grilled cheese sandwiches for themselves and their owners. (keeping great apes as pets is a terrible idea by the way.)

When they didn't have their lexigram book handy, they have been observed writing the symbols for what they want.

I am tired of this argument. If chimp is that smart, why don't we see a cave-man level chimp society? You use special case to argue against general case. That is what the evolutionist can do the best. Really shame.

 

[Mainframes]

I am tired of this argument. If chimp is that smart, why don't we see a cave-man level chimp society? You use special case to argue against general case. That is what the evolutionist can do the best. Really shame.

We are not saying chimps are as smart as mankind but simply trying refute your assertion that they are stupid and do not deserve to be grouped in a similar classification as humans.

 

[juvenissun]

We are not saying chimps are as smart as mankind but simply trying refute your assertion that they are stupid and do not deserve to be grouped in a similar classification as humans.

I said this several times. You want to join them, you are welcome.

 

[[serious]]

If it were that easy, then should we say that ALL chimps use sign language?
If not, why not?

Same reason not all humans know sign language.

 

[[serious]]

I am tired of this argument. If chimp is that smart, why don't we see a cave-man level chimp society? You use special case to argue against general case. That is what the evolutionist can do the best. Really shame.

It's your definition. If human kind is uses fire, other apes can be human kind.

You keep trying to come up with why it doesn't count, but you are really bad at that too and keep saying things that can fairly easily be disproven or things that give rise to other problems. Your preoccupation with fire should be abandoned for two reasons:
1. It's silly. Describing the relatedness of groups by learned behaviors makes no sense.
2. It doesn't actually result in the grouping you want. In general, trying to reach some desired conclusion by coming up with cooked definitions to try and force the discussion to that conclusion is bad science and bad logic. Coming up with definitions that fail to do that even when trying really hard to just gets sad though. Your cooked definitions are not only silly but result in a different conclusion than you want.

 

[juvenissun]

It's your definition. If human kind is uses fire, other apes can be human kind.

You keep trying to come up with why it doesn't count, but you are really bad at that too and keep saying things that can fairly easily be disproven or things that give rise to other problems. Your preoccupation with fire should be abandoned for two reasons:
1. It's silly. Describing the relatedness of groups by learned behaviors makes no sense.
2. It doesn't actually result in the grouping you want. In general, trying to reach some desired conclusion by coming up with cooked definitions to try and force the discussion to that conclusion is bad science and bad logic. Coming up with definitions that fail to do that even when trying really hard to just gets sad though. Your cooked definitions are not only silly but result in a different conclusion than you want.

All right, then let's add statistical info to the definition:

Count all human populations, about 50% of human can raise and use fire.
Use this 50% figure as a criterion.
Chimps has 0.00001% in its population can light up fire with human assistance.
So, chimp should be classified to the monkey kind. Human kind is not a monkey kind.

 

[juvenissun]

Same reason not all humans know sign language.

If so, why would chimps want to use sign language at all?

 

[Mainframes]

I said this several times. You want to join them, you are welcome.

I have got absolutely no issues being classified in the family Hominidae along with chimps, gorillas etc. This has no bearing on my standing as a human or indeed the status of humanity in general.

You seem to think there is some massive stigma in being in the same family. Do you think that makes you less 'special'?

This seems to be a general theme amongst the religious that humanity has some sort of right to be the centre of the universe, god's chosen, everything made for them, up on a pedestal and have some sort of special meaning to their life.

I am happy to accept my place as totally insignificant in the big scheme of the cosmos and to give my own life meaning through my own actions.

 

[juvenissun]

I have got absolutely no issues being classified in the family Hominidae along with chimps, gorillas etc. This has no bearing on my standing as a human or indeed the status of humanity in general.

You seem to think there is some massive stigma in being in the same family. Do you think that makes you less 'special'?

This seems to be a general theme amongst the religious that humanity has some sort of right to be the centre of the universe, god's chosen, everything made for them, up on a pedestal and have some sort of special meaning to their life.

I am happy to accept my place as totally insignificant in the big scheme of the cosmos and to give my own life meaning through my own actions.

You are a poor human who can not see the big difference between human and chimp, and want to be "classified" the same as chimp.

What can I say? I guess you can further identify yourself as a member in the dog family. In the family tree of mammals, are you a cousin of them?

If a human does not want to recognize himself as an unique life form, nobody can help him.

 

[Mainframes]

You are a poor human who can not see the big difference between human and chimp, and want to be "classified" the same as chimp.

What can I say? I guess you can further identify yourself as a member in the dog family. In the family tree of mammals, are you a cousin of them?

If a human does not want to recognize himself as an unique life form, nobody can help him.

I didn't say I wanted to be classified the same as a chimp just that I feel no shame being in the hominadae family. Please learn to read.

As for dogs, I am in same class - Mammalia. Again not a problem. Do you not consider yourself a mammal?