Observations : Create Your Own God

[Albion]

What relationship to historical facts does it have?

?? They're all over the place! Not only does the Old Testament record the journeys and events relating to the Hebrew and other peoples prior to Christ, but numerous historical personalities--King Herod and Pontius Pilate, for example--are spoken of in the Bible, along with the time frame for all of them.

 

[MotherFirefly]

?? They're all over the place! Not only does the Old Testament record the journeys and events relating to the Hebrew and other peoples prior to Christ, but numerous historical personalities--King Herod and Pontius Pilate, for example--are spoken of in the Bible, along with the time frame for all of them.

Are there not many books that, while based on actual historical people, exaggerate and add fiction?
I guess I just see it as pointless to say this is 'absolute truth' when there is always a chance that religious radicals just decided to write a book recording history over a long period of time, while adding what their opinion of truth and a higher power would be.

Don't tell me it is 'absolute truth'. Tell me it is faith that we rest our claims, and faith that what we know to be true is true.

From what I have seen, some christians, not saying you do this, but some forget the fact that there could be other possibilities going on and everything they believe is based on faith for that belief. If I am going to decide to put my faith in this book, I am still never going to tell people that it is absolute truth I put my faith in, because I cannot prove that. I cannot tell them that what they believe is 'wrong' because, for all we know, they could be right and we are wrong. Rather, I keep my mind open to every possibility, all the while keeping faith that what I believe to be true is truth.

When a christian gets into the mindset that everyone is wrong but them, it turns christianity into what the world portrays them as. Self righteous people, with cold hearts, and no regard for others. You can't argue with someone who is always right. And if you never concede to the notion you could be wrong, few people are going to have the desire to listen to what you have to say.

 

[Albion]

Are there not many books that, while based on actual historical people, exaggerate and add fiction?

There probably are, but my point was that the Bible has had the kitchen sink thrown at it by skeptics over the years and has held up well. Meanwhile, most of the other sacred texts of other religions don't even deal is historical events and people, geographical references, and so on that allow doubters to check into the accuracy of what's written. That being the case, no, I don't think that it can fairly be said either that they're all the same or that believing the Bible is just a matter of blind faith.

When a christian gets into the mindset that everyone is wrong but them, it turns christianity into what the world portrays them as. Self righteous people, with cold hearts, and no regard for others.

That doesn't follow as far as the value of the Bible is concerned--not unless the Christians you have in mind are themselves self-righteous and cold-hearted and show off all of that.

 

[FireDragon76]

A good and easy primer is The Challenge of a Liberal Faith, written by a Unitarian minister. You might like it. To be sure, you don't have to join anything.

I don't think Albion suggested Unitarians as a put-down or trying to force you into something inauthentic. Unitarianism is perfect for someone that feels that a spiritual life is best directed to a set of principles rather than a belief in God.

However, Unitarians are a small group for a good reason. While there is a lot of latitude in their beliefs, or lack thereof, it is very much self-directed and that doesn't suit everybody (after all, why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?). There are plenty of alternatives to the false dichotomies between religious absolutism and religious indifferentism.

I don't believe you really understand what classical theism is really saying about God. In turns out, actually very little compared to what we do not know about God (this is called negative theology, and it is important to understanding classical Christian theology). The theology of most ancient Christian churches confesses that God is incomprehensible intellectually. But an overly intellectualized approach to life necessarily beneficial (indeed, psychologists call this a defense mechanism, a way to repress emotions). As Pascal said, "The heart has reasons that Reason does not know". So we cannot know God intellectually through reason, then how do we know God at all? We know God through what he does in the world, what he does in our lives as believers.

The only sorts of Christians that believe that God is comprehensible intellectually are generally people in fundamentalist sects (some are intelligent, like William Lane Craig, but some of his views on God are outside the mainstream of historic Christian faith at times), and these types tend to be highly authoritarian and absolutist, or extremely liberal Christians who believe in things like Process Theism.

If we think we understand God, what we really have done is made up a God in our own mind, in our own image- an idol.

You say you want answers and truth, but the answers you will be given will never be fully satisfying, that is just the nature of life . Truth can be found, however it isn't found in abstract speculation or debate but in the earthy, gritty stuff that life is made of. A church could help you get there, or maybe not. After all, it's not like a phenomenon so complex as religion is reducible to doctrine or explanation, that is a big mistake a lot of westerners naïve in such matters make. In short you are going to have to get your hands dirty, you cannot just sit on a fence forever.

 

[Albion]

I don't think Albion suggested Unitarians as a put-down or trying to force you into something inauthentic. Unitarianism is perfect for someone that feels that a spiritual life is best directed to a set of principles rather than a belief in God.

Right. But it doesn't have anything against a belief in God at the same time.

However, Unitarians are a small group for a good reason. While there is a lot of latitude in their beliefs, or lack thereof, it is very much self-directed and that doesn't suit everybody (after all, why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?).

That's true, but with this thread, we didn't have the "looking for a church" inquiry that we often receive. I saw our inquirer as wishing there were an identify for her rather than a church affiliation. If so, Unitarians already consider her to be a Unitarian...and she doesn't have to join anything.

 

[MotherFirefly]

I don't think Albion suggested Unitarians as a put-down or trying to force you into something inauthentic. Unitarianism is perfect for someone that feels that a spiritual life is best directed to a set of principles rather than a belief in God.

However, Unitarians are a small group for a good reason. While there is a lot of latitude in their beliefs, or lack thereof, it is very much self-directed and that doesn't suit everybody (after all, why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?). There are plenty of alternatives to the false dichotomies between religious absolutism and religious indifferentism.

I don't believe you really understand what classical theism is really saying about God. In turns out, actually very little compared to what we do not know about God (this is called negative theology, and it is important to understanding classical Christian theology). The theology of most ancient Christian churches confesses that God is incomprehensible intellectually. But an overly intellectualized approach to life necessarily beneficial (indeed, psychologists call this a defense mechanism, a way to repress emotions). As Pascal said, "The heart has reasons that Reason does not know". So we cannot know God intellectually through reason, then how do we know God at all? We know God through what he does in the world, what he does in our lives as believers.

The only sorts of Christians that believe that God is comprehensible intellectually are generally people in fundamentalist sects (some are intelligent, like William Lane Craig, but some of his views on God are outside the mainstream of historic Christian faith at times), and these types tend to be highly authoritarian and absolutist, or extremely liberal Christians who believe in things like Process Theism.

If we think we understand God, what we really have done is made up a God in our own mind, in our own image- an idol.

You say you want answers and truth, but the answers you will be given will never be fully satisfying, that is just the nature of life . Truth can be found, however it isn't found in abstract speculation or debate but in the earthy, gritty stuff that life is made of. A church could help you get there, or maybe not. After all, it's not like a phenomenon so complex as religion is reducible to doctrine or explanation, that is a big mistake a lot of westerners naïve in such matters make. In short you are going to have to get your hands dirty, you cannot just sit on a fence forever.

Wow, thank you very much for your input. Very well said.I think I understand what you are saying... I have spent a lot of time speculating, coming up with theories, trying to 'explain' it all. As you said though, it really is seemingly impossible.
I don't think church can help me, but I will continue going.
I already figured the whole 'you must find the answers on your own' deal applied here, but it was interesting to hear what other people, who have probably spent much longer studying and speculating than I have, had to say on the matter.

It is funny how different it all is, speculating and discussing for a God, rather than against him.
Thanks again for all the information and opinions. I have learned quite a bit from it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What makes you think, "there *must* be something better than humans" ?

What do you expect to find, if anything?

 

[Noxot]

I have noticed some things since I began my curiousity-driven search for something greater than myself: I find that a lot of religious sects, and individuals in general, will taylor their beliefs into whatever is easiest or of most help for them. Sometimes, even, whatever they believe will make them the most money.

This makes it difficult for someone like myself, and so many others I know or do not know, to find what they are looking for. As an outsider observing the (mainly christian) groups around me, I find that most of them cannot agree with eachother what they believe, let alone with another group. It seems that most religions are focused on one thing similar: a deity. They may have different names for their deity, but in general, it is a benevolent being above themselves. It's not until you delve into what that deity does or does not want you to do, that the ideas get drastically seperate.

I find it difficult to avoid the want to just, create my own deity that fits everything I want it to be. Afterall, it seems that is what everyone else has done! Am I to just find the deity that I like the most and follow its teaching till I die?

It dissapoints me because I have always been inquisitive about religion, and I find it does not agree with the inquisitive mind. I came to religion in hopes of finding answers and truth for my life... instead, it only offers more questions. It was like going to a proffessor for answers, someone who has studied a topic for decades, and he knew about as much as I did.

A lot of christians argue that if you want truth, just read the bible. Or pray.
The issue I have with this? There are many sects who have a book that they say holds the truth. Which book is the correct book? If we are in an eternal race to truth and happiness in whatever may happen after this life, am I really to just take your word for it? Risk waisting my time, even my life, studying a book that no one can PROVE is real?

So far, my beliefs play out something like this: I believe there is a deity. I do not know its name, origin, or what it wants me to do. However, I do believe it is there. It is my hope, my faith if you will, that it is benevolent, compassionate, cares. Thus, it is my belief I should do my best to live to whatever standards it may have, which we assume are righteous. By this, I mean living with love for others, selflessly, and constantly seeking wisdom.
Many people will tell me it is this deity, or that deity, but I say there is no way to know. So why argue about it?
I suppose some people feel better about the unknown by arguing about it... I can see that everywhere. Helps them understand their own idea, in a facade of knowing everything.

Part of me worries if this is good enough. What if one of these groups of people actually have it figured out and I am way off?
I suppose my peace comes from knowing that, even if I was wrong, I lived my life in a way that was only beneficial to the world. I did not kill, maim, or condescend others. Instead, I lifted and loved them. Positive impact.

Feel free to throw out ideas, concerns, and beliefs. Curious what others believe.

tradition does not have to be a bad thing. I think one should be opened up to God with as much of capacity as they have. sometimes 'formal' religion can get in the way and sometimes it helps. since we have a soul we will have a limited understanding of God. since God is infinite we as finite creatures can be with him and endlessly find him and our own selves since God is life. God does not do things by mere strict laws and rules rather the things he says in the bible are just reality. it is not by a confession with the mouth or a creed alone that we are with God, it has to be in reality since God made reality. the closer to being 'spirit' rather than 'flesh' we are the easier it should be to be with and know God.

Exod 3:6 (YLT)
He saith also, `I am the God of thy father, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob;' and Moses hideth his face, for he is afraid to look towards God.

we each must know God for ourselves as we are people thus there has to come a point where we know God as "God of (your name)". we must not be afraid to look towards God. Jesus already stated plenty of divine laws that speak of how we are with God and how we are not. God is wisdom and love and we know him as much as we are in such things whether we know Jesus or not, because if we knew Jesus we would be as he is which does not require that we know about him in the shallow sense of labels. God has plenty of angels which have an honest desire to help us all out and lead us closer to God. we simply have to be willing and to be away from evils as much as we can.

this diagram of the soul explains how humans are and why there could be disagreement between peoples concerning God. it is because not everyone has the same wisdom and thus perceptions and everyone does not have the same love and thus desires:

 

[MotherFirefly]

What makes you think, "there *must* be something better than humans" ?

What do you expect to find, if anything?

Erm, because humans, as a whole, just suck. I guess, like many other people, I want there to be more than there is. I want to create this sense of purpose, where the possibility remains that there is none.
Humans have always found creative ways to make sure they feel important. Feeds off of our vanity and self-entitlement.

 

[SkyWriting]

I have noticed some things since I began my curiousity-driven search for something greater than myself: I find that a lot of religious sects, and individuals in general, will taylor their beliefs into whatever is easiest or of most help for them. Sometimes, even, whatever they believe will make them the most money.

This makes it difficult for someone like myself, and so many others I know or do not know, to find what they are looking for. As an outsider observing the (mainly christian) groups around me, I find that most of them cannot agree with eachother what they believe, let alone with another group. It seems that most religions are focused on one thing similar: a deity. They may have different names for their deity, but in general, it is a benevolent being above themselves. It's not until you delve into what that deity does or does not want you to do, that the ideas get drastically seperate.

I find it difficult to avoid the want to just, create my own deity that fits everything I want it to be. Afterall, it seems that is what everyone else has done! Am I to just find the deity that I like the most and follow its teaching till I die?

It dissapoints me because I have always been inquisitive about religion, and I find it does not agree with the inquisitive mind. I came to religion in hopes of finding answers and truth for my life... instead, it only offers more questions. It was like going to a proffessor for answers, someone who has studied a topic for decades, and he knew about as much as I did.

A lot of christians argue that if you want truth, just read the bible. Or pray.
The issue I have with this? There are many sects who have a book that they say holds the truth. Which book is the correct book? If we are in an eternal race to truth and happiness in whatever may happen after this life, am I really to just take your word for it? Risk waisting my time, even my life, studying a book that no one can PROVE is real?

So far, my beliefs play out something like this: I believe there is a deity. I do not know its name, origin, or what it wants me to do. However, I do believe it is there. It is my hope, my faith if you will, that it is benevolent, compassionate, cares. Thus, it is my belief I should do my best to live to whatever standards it may have, which we assume are righteous. By this, I mean living with love for others, selflessly, and constantly seeking wisdom.
Many people will tell me it is this deity, or that deity, but I say there is no way to know. So why argue about it?
I suppose some people feel better about the unknown by arguing about it... I can see that everywhere. Helps them understand their own idea, in a facade of knowing everything.

Part of me worries if this is good enough. What if one of these groups of people actually have it figured out and I am way off?
I suppose my peace comes from knowing that, even if I was wrong, I lived my life in a way that was only beneficial to the world. I did not kill, maim, or condescend others. Instead, I lifted and loved them. Positive impact.

Feel free to throw out ideas, concerns, and beliefs. Curious what others believe.

See "Answered Prayer" below.
It doesn't require any background, Bible or other writings.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...I guess ... I want there to be more than there is. I want to create this sense of purpose, where the possibility remains that there is none.

But wanting something doesn't mean it *must* exist; and you can create a sense of purpose from the real things that make up your relationship to the world - friends, family, needs, ambitions, desires, etc.

 

[MotherFirefly]

But wanting something doesn't mean it *must* exist; and you can create a sense of purpose from the real things that make up your relationship to the world - friends, family, needs, ambitions, desires, etc.

But is the hope that this all means something not the foundation for all religion?
The reason we create gods and religions, all throughout history, is because of our sense of entitlement, is it not? We have always wanted to be more than the dirt we are made of. The greatest fears of humanity have always been the unknown and death. What better way to conteract those fears than by creating a being who, unlike ourselves, knows everything and gives us purpose beyond our meager, short lives.
Yes, we can create sense of purpose in our responsibilities to those around us. But as those people die and leave us, the ever-looming fear of pointlessness returns. How great it must be to turn to a greater being when this time comes. One who can give us purpose and meaning, even if it might be all in our mind.

 

[quatona]

But is the hope that this all means something not the foundation for all religion?
The reason we create gods and religions, all throughout history, is because of our sense of entitlement, is it not? We have always wanted to be more than the dirt we are made of. The greatest fears of humanity have always been the unknown and death. What better way to conteract those fears than by creating a being who, unlike ourselves, knows everything and gives us purpose beyond our meager, short lives.

I guess that works as long as you can convince yourself of your own mental creation.

Yes, we can create sense of purpose in our responsibilities to those around us. But as those people die and leave us, the ever-looming fear of pointlessness returns. How great it must be to turn to a greater being when this time comes. One who can give us purpose and meaning, even if it might be all in our mind.

What purpose and meaning would that be?

 

[ScottA]

I have noticed some things since I began my curiousity-driven search for something greater than myself: I find that a lot of religious sects, and individuals in general, will taylor their beliefs into whatever is easiest or of most help for them. Sometimes, even, whatever they believe will make them the most money.

This makes it difficult for someone like myself, and so many others I know or do not know, to find what they are looking for. As an outsider observing the (mainly christian) groups around me, I find that most of them cannot agree with eachother what they believe, let alone with another group. It seems that most religions are focused on one thing similar: a deity. They may have different names for their deity, but in general, it is a benevolent being above themselves. It's not until you delve into what that deity does or does not want you to do, that the ideas get drastically seperate.

I find it difficult to avoid the want to just, create my own deity that fits everything I want it to be. Afterall, it seems that is what everyone else has done! Am I to just find the deity that I like the most and follow its teaching till I die?

It dissapoints me because I have always been inquisitive about religion, and I find it does not agree with the inquisitive mind. I came to religion in hopes of finding answers and truth for my life... instead, it only offers more questions. It was like going to a proffessor for answers, someone who has studied a topic for decades, and he knew about as much as I did.

A lot of christians argue that if you want truth, just read the bible. Or pray.
The issue I have with this? There are many sects who have a book that they say holds the truth. Which book is the correct book? If we are in an eternal race to truth and happiness in whatever may happen after this life, am I really to just take your word for it? Risk waisting my time, even my life, studying a book that no one can PROVE is real?

So far, my beliefs play out something like this: I believe there is a deity. I do not know its name, origin, or what it wants me to do. However, I do believe it is there. It is my hope, my faith if you will, that it is benevolent, compassionate, cares. Thus, it is my belief I should do my best to live to whatever standards it may have, which we assume are righteous. By this, I mean living with love for others, selflessly, and constantly seeking wisdom.
Many people will tell me it is this deity, or that deity, but I say there is no way to know. So why argue about it?
I suppose some people feel better about the unknown by arguing about it... I can see that everywhere. Helps them understand their own idea, in a facade of knowing everything.

Part of me worries if this is good enough. What if one of these groups of people actually have it figured out and I am way off?
I suppose my peace comes from knowing that, even if I was wrong, I lived my life in a way that was only beneficial to the world. I did not kill, maim, or condescend others. Instead, I lifted and loved them. Positive impact.

Feel free to throw out ideas, concerns, and beliefs. Curious what others believe.

There is a reason that things are the way they are: confused and different. But there is an answer for everything.

God has intentionally "confused" all language (Genesis 11:7) to cause a type of blind on every generation (Romans 11:25)...until the times are fulfilled, allowing us the time, with all "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

As for our differences: Those who make up the body of Christ, are One body, but many [different] members...some even seeming to oppose each other, as the thumb does the fingers of a single hand working for the same cause. Romans 12:4

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

But is the hope that this all means something not the foundation for all religion?
The reason we create gods and religions, all throughout history, is because of our sense of entitlement, is it not? We have always wanted to be more than the dirt we are made of. The greatest fears of humanity have always been the unknown and death. What better way to conteract those fears than by creating a being who, unlike ourselves, knows everything and gives us purpose beyond our meager, short lives.

What you're describing is called escapism, taking comfort in imaginary figments. I guess we all do it to some extent, but even trekkies know the difference between their escapism and real life.

Yes, we can create sense of purpose in our responsibilities to those around us. But as those people die and leave us, the ever-looming fear of pointlessness returns.

What's to fear? it's just the cycle of life; we happen to be the fortunate survivors of billions of years of evolution, and to be able give meaning to the time we have; and we have more power than ever before to effect our goals, long term or short term, whatever we decide them to be. To spend this opportunity chasing figments seems perverse.

How great it must be to turn to a greater being when this time comes. One who can give us purpose and meaning, even if it might be all in our mind.

I can understand the attraction of a father and/or authority figure (although it has caused a lot of trouble through history), but this deep a need for an imaginary father to be the focus of meaning and purpose, and distract from fear of pointlessness, seems somehow rather immature and sad... What proportion of Christians do you suppose feel this way?

 

[ScottA]

I can understand the attraction of a father and/or authority figure (although it has caused a lot of trouble through history), but this deep a need for an imaginary father to be the focus of meaning and purpose, and distract from fear of pointlessness, seems somehow rather immature and sad... What proportion of Christians do you suppose feel this way?

It may be interesting to note the number of Christians that have superhero needs as a result of father issues, but it's not exclusive to Christians. It's a human thing.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It may be interesting to note the number of Christians that have superhero needs as a result of father issues, but it's not exclusive to Christians. It's a human thing.

I'm actually more interested to know how many don't have this need - and yes, I realise it's probably impossible to make more than a vague guess at it.

 

[ScottA]

I'm actually more interested to know how many don't have this need - and yes, I realise it's probably impossible to make more than a vague guess at it.

I would venture to say, that it's probably the same group that says they are not afraid when being shot at.

 

[FireDragon76]

and we have more power than ever before to effect our goals, long term or short term, whatever we decide them to be. To spend this opportunity chasing figments seems perverse.

I think you should check your privilege. You find the spiritual quest perverse because you sit on top of a heap of material prosperity. But most human beings do not.

 

[MotherFirefly]

As for our differences: Those who make up the body of Christ, are One body, but many [different] members...some even seeming to oppose each other, as the thumb does the fingers of a single hand working for the same cause. Romans 12:4

Thank you for being real with me. Good gosh, it is hard to find people who admit this, rather than the 'I am right, they are wrong' mentality.