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Objective morality, Evidence for God's existence

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Elioenai26

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You're exactly right, under naturalism, specifically in the T.E.N.S. the concept of morality is a tool which fosters certain tendencies within us. Because of this, there can be no appeal that is made to any transcendant moral standard of right and wrong good or bad. You are correct on this.

That is why, as a naturalist, you must see people that believe in hell as doing so according to their evolved traits and genes passed down from their ancestors according to the dicatate of the T.E.N.S.. These views are aids to survival and keep men and women on the right track of evolutionary development. The proponents of hell, according to naturalism, believe what they do because their genes have determined them to believe that way. All is reducible to chemical reactions in the brain. And since we all have evolved from a single celled organism, we all are children of this evolutionary process, no one is better, or worse than anyone else.

But see Skavau, the dilemma into which you fall?? You cannot deny what I just said, and yet you cannot bring yourself to dismiss belief in an eternal hell as merely a result of socio-biological processes. You actually believe the idea of hell is contemptible!

So how do you wiggle out of this dilemma? You must decide between which view you are going to hold to as being true, the former, or the latter. You can't have both though, you can't have both and that is what the moral argument shows.

You say "we" as if you've been around for millions of years and have been privy to the T.E.N.S. as it has been working.

You are 23 years old.
 
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quatona

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You are hysterical!
I´m not here to exchange compliments.

I dont care what you concede.
Yes, I have noticed that you hardly ever care what your conversations partners actually have to say.


If you are so curious to know, the moral argument was championed by none other than......thats right...C.S. Lewis! How's that for irony?
I don´t find anything ironic about that. The quality of this argument fits right in with the rest of LiarLordLunaticLewis´ work. As I said before: He´s certainly good at finding words for the sentiments of the believer, but the apologetic power of his arguments tends towards zero.
 
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Elioenai26

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Ok.
 
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Skavau

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However, in first world nations we've moved beyond mere consideration of group survival.

Oh pull the other one.

If this is some dilemma for my me then for you it is bigger. You claim to have access to objective morality which says torture is wrong and yet you make an exception when it comes to hell. How do you reconcile your objective morality with that of hell?

Yes, I do. That's because my moral understanding and appreciation is based not solely on survival.
 
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Ruloepiza

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#2 is an assumption therefore the argument is not sound.
 
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Davian

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Strawman.

There exists at least five main evidences for the existence of God. Check em out at www.reasonablefaith.org

Does not the Kalam argument rely on evidence that the current instantiation of the cosmos is 13+ billions of years old? Are you not an young Earth creationist?

Is that one of the issues you have with the scientific theory of evolution? You do not think we have had *time* to evolve?
 
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Paradoxum

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I'm not sure what you mean, and why it would be true. Clearly we can morally judge people, and evolution is true, so it is possible.


Well morality comes from a combination of an objective point of view, with subjective necessary human desires.


Well two starving people fighting over food is hardly an easy moral case to begin with. B isn't obviously morally responsible in the same way we would think someone is who kills out of greedy rather than starvation. So I don't think your example is helpful for convincing me.


I would say objectivity and reason are above evolution. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say about stepping outside of evolution. Evolution is just a scientific theory. It is descriptive. And I don't think it says morality is an illusion.


Evolution is just a theory about what happens, it doesn't prescribe action. I find it strange how you talk about it. As if evolution justifies anything on its own.


No I don't. I'm just consider people objectively. If one person kills another innocent person I think it is wrong because I know humans don't want to be killed. It incorrectly treats the murderers will to be more important than the victims, which isn't objectively true.

Any questions?

No, but is seems as if you think that if evolution is true than we can't think beyond evolution, when we quite obviously can.

Also, you called me your 'dear' quite alot in this post.
 
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Mr. Pedantic

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The really funny thing is, that even if premise 2 were valid, your argument would still be invalid because there are so many other things wrong with it.

Also, I find your attempts at derogation and insult rather amusing, but maybe other people might not.
 
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Elioenai26

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I'm not sure what you mean, and why it would be true. Clearly we can morally judge people, and evolution is true, so it is possible.

Of course you can pass moral judgments on people. We do it all the time which actually confirms the veracity of (2). However, UNDER NATURALISM you have NO BASIS for doing so. According to proponents of the T.E.N.S., morality is nothing more than a tool utilized by the T.E.N.S. to aid in surivival and reproduction. Therefore under the T.E.N.S. when moral judgments are made, they are made with regards to whether or not an act aids or does'nt aid in survival and reproduction. Thats it. Its good if it aids it is bad if it does not aid. Thats as far as it goes UNDER NATRUALISM.

I would love to present you with expert testimony from the men and women who are naturalists and who are currently engrossed in this subject. Would you like me to?



Well morality comes from a combination of an objective point of view, with subjective necessary human desires.

UNDER NATURALISM, the concept of morality originated as the by product of E.N.S.

You seem to be wanting to maintain objectivity while operating within a purely naturalistic framework but you cannot, because you are in the framework itself. You are a homosapien just like the man who kills the man for his food. You are not above him looking down on him, but you are right along side of him, a by-product of millions of years of evolution. You and him are the same. You can afford to buy your food, he, in a certain circumstance, had to kill for his food. UNDER NATURALISM, neither person is right or wrong in the sense that you want to use the words. You were both justified because you were satisfying the needs of the body.

Well two starving people fighting over food is hardly an easy moral case to begin with.

You are wanting to change my case study to diminish the harshness of it. I said no where in my example that there were two starving men fighting over food. What I said was that (A) took the life of (B) because he is hungry and wants the food in (B's) possession.

A isn't obviously morally responsible in the same way we would think someone is who kills out of greedy rather than starvation. So I don't think your example is helpful for convincing me.

You are still talking about "moral resonsibility". There is no moral responsibility under NATURALISM.
And I think this is where the misunderstanding lies not only for yourself, but for anyone else who seeks to hold on to moral objectivity whilst denouncing God.

On the NATURALISTIC worldview our concept of right and wrong, and moral obligations are solely the by-products of the T.E.N.S. They are by-products like our hands, feet, and teeth. They are reducible to chemical reactions that take place inside of our grey matter. They are nothing more than aids to survival and reproduction. That is it. There is nothing more to it than that. E.N.S is concerned with adaptation to aid in survival of our species. Right acts are those which are perceived as aiding survival, wrong acts are seen as those which are disadvantageous to survival. That is as far as the ideas of right and wrong can go in a naturalistic world composed of matter and governed by physical, natural causes. There is no more to it than that.

As atheist philosopher of science Michael Ruse states:


"The position of the modern evolutionist is that humans have an awareness
of morality because such an awareness is of biological worth. Morality is a
biological adaptation, no less than our hands and feet and teeth. Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory.
I appreciate that when someone says, "love thy neighbor as thyself," they think they
are referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless such reference is truly
without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, and any
deeper meaning is illusory."


So you see Paradoxum, there is no "moral culpability" afforded under naturalism as it is in theism. Does this mean that atheist do not make moral judgments? Not at all, for atheists like theists, make moral judgments everyday.

The point is, is that theists have a rationally justifiable reason for making such judgments. Atheists do not.


I would say objectivity and reason are above evolution. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say about stepping outside of evolution. Evolution is just a scientific theory.

On naturalism my dear, there is nothing above or beyond the natural. Everything must be explained via natural occurances. This, I hope, will help you begin to see how narrow minded one must be to hold to the view.

It is descriptive. And I don't think it says morality is an illusion.

The T.E.N.S. says nothing, as you noted, it is a theory. Atheistic and naturalistic SCIENTISTS say that morality is ultimately illusory. These are the same ones that at the very outset deny the existence of anything other than the natural and are therefore forever doomed to work within its limited confines.

Evolution is just a theory about what happens, it doesn't prescribe action. I find it strange how you talk about it. As if evolution justifies anything on its own.

I am using the T.E.N.S. the way any naturalistic philosopher of science or biology would use it. In fact it was Darwins's work on the T.E.N.S. that led Richard Dawkins to shout with great joy that he could now be an intellectually fulfilled atheist!

You see Paradoxum, the naturalistic scientists would have you believe that the T.E.N.S. is essentially an intelligent, proscriptive, mysterious, unexplainable entity that picks and chooses which traits and genes to pass on and which ones to discard. They attribute such properties to the T.E.N.S. and then claim that it is the best explanation for life as we know it!!!!! They mark out certain boundaries in which they can work, fashion this ridiculous theory together that it all just happened one day, with not outside intelligence or superintendence, and then boom, life! Life from star dust and rocks to boom you and me. From goo to you via the zoo.

Not only is none of this actually proven, as Richard Dawkins himself admits, but those who hold to such theories have faith that one day they will be proven right!

So we see my dear, and yes you are worthy of the name, the following sums it up well:

The atheistic ethicist, Richard Taylor, states:

“To say that something is wrong because... it is forbidden by God,
is... perfectly understandable to anyone who believes in a law-giving God.
But to say that something is wrong... even though no God exists to forbid it,
is not understandable. The concept of moral obligation [is] unintelligible apart
from the idea of God. The words remain but their meaning is gone
vi

The brilliant philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein candidly admitted that if there are ethical absolutes they would have to have come to man from outside the human situation - "Ethics, if it is anything," he wrote, "is supernatural..."vii

J.L. Mackie, one of the most outspoken atheists of this century agrees, "Moral properties are most unlikely to have arisen without an all-powerful god to create them."viii

And if Ruse is right, then our strong intuitions that rape, selfishness, discrimination and hate are objectively wrong, even outrageously immoral, are just delusions. So, unfortunately for the atheist, there is no basis for objective morality in a universe without God.

As the Russian author Dostoyevsky put it, "If there is no God, then all things are permitted."ix
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Of course you can pass moral judgments on people. We do it all the time which actually confirms the veracity of (2). However, UNDER NATURALISM you have NO BASIS for doing so.
Under General Relativity we have no basis either. Once you realise why, you'll realise why you're so utterly wrong on this topic.
 
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Illuminaughty

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I was just reading "The Tao is Silent" by Raymond Smullyan, a professor of mathematics and philosophy at the University of New York, and he made up this discussion between a Taoist and a Moralist that I thought was spot on:

Taoist: ... Many, many different objective definitions of right and wrong can be given, all of them perfectly precise. But for you to accept one, it must pass your own purely subjective standards.
...

Moralist: What about the objective moralist who believes in God? He defines the good as concordance with God's will. Can there be anything subjective about that?

Taoist: Of course there is! Abstractly it might appear objective. The only trouble is that one's choice of religion- the nature of the God one believes in- is determined entirely by subjective attitudes. hence, when someone says, "You should do so and so, not because I say you should, but because God's morality demands it", then I feel strongly that he is hiding his own purely subjective feelings behind a cloak of objectivity. Mind, you , I am not necessarily against subjectivity, provided it is honestly recognized as such.




 
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Paradoxum

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No, because evolution is descriptive, not prescriptive. Evolution doesn't have anything to say on right and wrong. By which I mean, aiding survival isn't good in evolution. There is no good, because it isn't a subject it deals with. That comes under philosophy and ethics. The theory of evolution only deals with evolution, so of course it will only talk about morality in terms of its part in evolution.

UNDER NATURALISM, the concept of morality originated as the by product of E.N.S.

I don't know what ENS stands for, but where it came from doesn't matter so much as what it is.


I didn't say I was above him.

This view of naturalism you have, is only one view. The view that only what is physical is important. I don't hold that view. I also take the subjective into my consideration. Conscious subjective experiences exist just as much as a rock does. It is the subjective that produces the foundation for morality, and then objectivity transforms the subjective into morality.


I wanted you to change it because your example isn't morally clear to me. It would seem that your case would be more convincing if you used a more straight forward moral situation (eg: killing someone for their money).


I'm not mistaken, you are just making stuff up about naturalism. I don't believe in God, but I do believe other people have subjective experiences, and you leave this out of your talk about naturalism.


That is one possible view, but it isn't necessarily true, and I don't think it is true.

Reason and logic are also by products of evolution, but 1+1 really does equal 2. Mathematics can be true or false. It isn't only true because 1+1=2 is helpful for survival.

Something being a product of evolution tells us nothing about whether the thing is real. Evolution produced the capacity for maths, and it also produced the ability to understand morality. Both are real, though real in different ways.


What do you mean, do I see? You quoting him is no different from me quoting Nietzsche and saying, 'do you see... God isn't real'. I don't accept him as an authority. I agree that the capacity for morality has evolved because it was good for survival, but that doesn't mean it is nothing but an illusion. Our reason and math abilities also evolved, but produce real results.

The point is, is that theists have a rationally justifiable reason for making such judgments. Atheists do not.

Humanists not only can have justifiable reasons for moral judgements, but they are better than the theists. They can explain what is good and bad, and why, down to the very foundation of it. The theist, on the other hand, seems to have to stop at "God said so" without a reason why.

On naturalism my dear, there is nothing above or beyond the natural. Everything must be explained via natural occurances. This, I hope, will help you begin to see how narrow minded one must be to hold to the view.

Our ability to do geometry is produced by evolution, but the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees on a flat surface, and we know this to be true. Not everything created by evolution is an illusion.


Morality is outside the realm of science. They have no authority there, so I consider their philosophy of morality to be no more important than an ethicists.

Scientists are training in the physical, not philosophy.

I am using the T.E.N.S. the way any naturalistic philosopher of science or biology would use it. In fact it was Darwins's work on the T.E.N.S. that led Richard Dawkins to shout with great joy that he could now be an intellectually fulfilled atheist!

And apparently I disagree with those philosophers.


You know I doubt that, since I know enough about the theory of evolution to know that it isn't intelligent, proscriptive, or mysterious, and that isn't what I have heard about serious scientist say.

Not only is none of this actually proven, as Richard Dawkins himself admits, but those who hold to such theories have faith that one day they will be proven right!

I'm not sure what you mean by that. He says that evolution is proven as much as gravity. But no theory can ever be 100% proven.

So we see my dear, and yes you are worthy of the name, the following sums it up well:

Aww, trying to sweeten me up?


But of course I disagree with these people. I study philosophy and the whole point is to disagree with and write essays against profession philosophers. I don't consider someone to be an authority to me just because they are an atheist philosopher.

I guess my ethics is somewhat connected to, or at least inspired by, Immanuel Kant. Also with other influences. That said, I very much disagree with Kant's ethical theory.
 
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Davian

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Support your arguments? Give it a try.

Your quote refutes itself. Morality has its foundation as an aid to survival and reproduction

I do disagree with the choice of the word "illusory", for the same could be said for consciousness/self-awareness:

Self-awareness is just an aid to survival and reproduction, and any deeper meaning is illusory. See my thread on this here.

How about substituting "a construct" for "illusionary"?

But then, you are a "dualist" are you not?
All theists? Or just the ones that believe exactly what you do?
On naturalism my dear,
Do you find that the condescending attitude adds weight to your assertions?
Are you aware of the site rule that states:
● Members shall not make posts which violate the copyrights of others or promote another work as your own.

That last assertion - "If there is no God, then all things are permitted" - does that show itself in the real world? Do countries with large percentages of atheists have correspondingly higher crime rates, or some other indicator?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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"the fact that under atheism..." I'm an atheist, and I do not see the universe as empty and meaningless.

But in using Rama's work, you have also insinuated that ultimately, meaning is what humans make it out to be. So if it is meaningful for some to live a life centered on making others miserable, who are you to say otherwise?

Who am I to say otherwise? You are again assuming that I have no right to morally object unless I believe in the supernatural.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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This argument is ridiculous. You are essentially saying that, if morality evolved, then there is no morality. That is like saying if colour perception evolved, then no one can perceive colour.

You are still talking about "moral resonsibility". There is no moral responsibility under NATURALISM.

And you keep asserting the contrary, without supporting the assertion.

And I think this is where the misunderstanding lies not only for yourself, but for anyone else who seeks to hold on to moral objectivity whilst denouncing God.

Do you ignore posts that are inconvenient to you? I have directed you to McDowell and Williams and the debate over the subjectivity/objectivity of moral value. A debate that does not center on the existence of deities.


What do you mean by by-products?


No one has said that right acts are defined as those aiding survival and wrong acts as those that hinder survival. No one has defined them as such except you. You are confusing one of the reasons why moral systems might be advantageous with those moral systems themselves.


Ruse is a subjectivist about moral value. Read McDowell.

So you see Paradoxum, there is no "moral culpability" afforded under naturalism as it is in theism.

You think there is moral culpability under theism? How so? Explain how the supernatural helps you in moral problem-solving.

Does this mean that atheist do not make moral judgments? Not at all, for atheists like theists, make moral judgments everyday.

The point is, is that theists have a rationally justifiable reason for making such judgments. Atheists do not.

What is the rationally justifiable reason that theists have for making such judgments?


You are either deliberately oversimplifying the views of your opposition or you are otherwise ignorant of their views. Read Sam Harris.


I have read Mackie and Ruse and Wittgenstein, and I know that you are oversimplifying by quote-mining. You are doing this so as to create the impression that all atheist philosophers and scientists ascribe to a particular view (the view that you are trying to attack) when they do not. This is a kind of strawman, where you seek to define the position of your opponent for them.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Are you aware of the site rule that states:
● Members shall not make posts which violate the copyrights of others or promote another work as your own.

How dare you suggest that Elio might be doing wrong by the site's rules. You're an atheist (well, a seeker) -- you have no basis for doing that!

(For some reason, I am reminded here of that scene in the The Tower Towers where Saruman [through Theoden] says, "You have no power here, Gandalf the Grey", before he is cast out.)
 
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