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Objective morality, can it exist? Sort of....

Econ4every1

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Instead its built into us as an objective fact of biology.

Right, but the statement "survival is good" is contingent on our biology (or the biology of any conscious creature that makes a similar statement) and our conscious desire to survive. Thus the objective nature of morality is only objective with respect to contingent human values, wants and desires.
 
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durangodawood

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Right, but the statement "survival is good" is contingent on our biology (or the biology of any conscious creature that makes a similar statement) and our conscious desire to survive. Thus the objective nature of morality is only objective with respect to contingent human values, wants and desires.
Yes, wanting to survive is contingent on biology. But thats matter of objective reality. The contingent nature of various natural facts doesnt render them subjective.
 
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Econ4every1

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My question is what would be the highest morality could anyone achieve while here on this earth?

I would argue that human empathy is something we value and our morals are a reflection of it.

For example, I see a person who is struggling to walk up a flight of stairs. If I think that it is morally good to help them, my value of empathy is what guided me to believe that.

That said, I don't think there is a "highest morality", rather a set of fundamental human values (or lack thereof) from which all behavior arises.
 
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mlepfitjw

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I’m undereducated when it comes to the terms of what is valued, and the aspect of what morality is.

Believe morality is the choice between right and wrong. Though when a wrong choice is made it is called immoral because it is not acceptable by an individuals take on the standards of morality.

For me I do believe there is a an achievable morality and it based on the choice of love. Which I believe has become lost sometimes in the world we live in.

Though Love comes from the Father of all things from above (James 1:17), and it encompasses Understanding, Empathy, Gentleness, Non-judgement, Self-control, not easily angered, compassionate, merciful.

I believe that love is the highest peak of the morality scale as far as making the right choice even though we are unable to do it perfectly, and are helped by the spirit that lives in us as christians.

thank you for your comments.
 
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Econ4every1

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I’m undereducated when it comes to the terms of what is valued, and the aspect of what morality is.

Agallagher,

Thank you for joining the conversation and wading into these waters. I hope you find the conversation interesting!

I’m undereducated when it comes to the terms of what is valued, and the aspect of what morality is.

Most people have a very intuitive sense of right and wrong. I've heard Christians describe is as something that god "writes on our hearts".

Since I am not Christian, though I do share many values with people who would call themselves Christian.

That said, I think you'll find it challenging as a Christian to justify your ideas of morality from a logical point-of-view.

Take the Euthyphro dilemma;

Is something good because god commands it, or is god command it because it's good?


For me I do believe there is a an achievable morality and it based on the choice of love.

I would agree that morality is a choice, but to be honest, that isn't something that is generally accepted by most formal Christian philosophy. That said I think it's great that you can both hold a spiritual belief in Christianity but realize that Morality is a choice.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No need to be so evasive.

So the question is, is the picture objectively a unicorn?

By definition of what a unicorn is "which was defined before the picture"....sure.

You realize that our ability to identify a unicorn isn't what makes it a unicorn, right?
 
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Moral Orel

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If the word good has any meaning at all, it relates to certain objectively quantifiable states of human experience.
The words "good" and "bad" are subjective terms used to state "I like this" or "I dislike this", respectively. They can be used other ways for sure, but if you recognize that morality is subjective, using them in ways that are objective as well just muddies the waters.
 
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Econ4every1

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The words "good" and "bad" are subjective terms used to state "I like this" or "I dislike this", respectively. They can be used other ways for sure, but if you recognize that morality is subjective, using them in ways that are objective as well just muddies the waters.

The statement:

Eating broken glass is bad.

Subjective or objective?
 
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Kaon

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Then that wouldn't be what I was talking about ;)



True, agreement does not make a thing moral, after all, morals arise from shared values, not agreement.

But just as with a system of measurement, once we agree on a system there are things we can say are right and wrong with respect to that system.

Step back and ask yourself, what is the purpose of a system of measurement? Whatever your answer will most likely be part or all of what we value in a system of measurement.

Take the imperial and metric systems. Why was it necessary to create a metric system if the imperial system was already in place? Because over time we understood, via knowledge and understanding that there was an even better way to achieve the goals of the system.

All I'm saying is that, like a system of measurement, morality is a system that exists relative to shared goals that arise because of the values we share. With respect to those goals, there are objectively right ways and wrong ways to act and behave.

That's it.

I'm not attempting to assert that values and goals set are necessarily the best. Best relative to what? I'm not saying that the objective nature of any act or behavior is objective in an analytic sense. If we learn something new, like; no human is inferior in a biological sense to any other human, this knowledge can and often does change our values and in turn our morals. The statement that was objectively true before we learned that can change because the objective nature of propositions always relate back to and are grounded in synthetic subjective propositions.

Take for following statements:

It is bad to experience both actual and potential unwanted suffering, pain, and sickness

It is good to strive to achieve both actual and potential desired health, happiness and well-being.


Fundamentally, are the statements above objectively true? Of course not, people chose to value these things because those statements are completely consistent with our experience. The universe doesn't care if we live or die, but we do. We understand what death is, at least in this reality. We know what pain is and the human body seems to have evolved (if imperfectly) to try to avoid pain and suffering) and we know our actions have consequences and (most of us) understand how those actions affect others (empathy).

With these things in place, there are certain actions we value and others we do not, and our morality arises as a result of our values.

Sure, but all of that is still a highly subjective experience rationalizing highly subjective phenomena (like misery, pain, deceit) - and turning it into a system of laud.

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] love pain; sadists love giving it: these dyads may have a completely different code to follow than the average person, and the number of people who subscribe to the acts and code do not justify its validity.

America, for a while, was built on the PROVIDENCE of spreading as westward as possible - natives be damned. Today some Americans believe Manifest Destiny was a false religious justification for pillaging native land and killing them. To the Columbians, that code was Divine.

Slavery was also a divine act, considering European morality, for example, thought it acceptable to 1) classify other humans, and 2) exploit those classified as non-human (but clearly human) via slavery, rape, systemic oppression, etc.

To Americans, those incidents were, and for many still are, properly applied truth. To other Americans, fighting for their life against the aforementioned Columbian ideologies is truth. Science was on the side of Columbians for very long time.

Morality is a set of rules to keep the "poor" from killing the rich, and each other. Religion took it a step further and put in reward systems to let evil grow while misfortune remains. It's all humans trying to understand their existence through the lens of ego: highly problematic.

Perhaps I'm wrong about the things we should value and there is some other set of values that can better achieve what humans really want.

Whatever that is, it should be consistent with or experiences.

The other set of values is unattainable until we die, and then resurrect. If you don't believe in that, then your own ideologies will rule you, and mislead you - giving a false sense of security and vindication.
 
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durangodawood

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The words "good" and "bad" are subjective terms used to state "I like this" or "I dislike this", respectively. They can be used other ways for sure, but if you recognize that morality is subjective, using them in ways that are objective as well just muddies the waters.
Giant confusion alert!

"good" and "bad" describe the subjectively experienced feeling you get about doing or contemplating an action.

But the reasons why we experience one or the other is because of objective facts about human living... for the deepest and most enduring portions of human morality.
 
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durangodawood

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The statement:

Eating broken glass is bad.

Subjective or objective?
Given certain values that are natural to us, its objectively detrimental to us. Its fair to just call that "bad".
 
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Econ4every1

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The other set of values is unattainable until we die, and then resurrect. If you don't believe in that, then your own ideologies will rule you, and mislead you - giving a false sense of security and vindication.

I value being free from harm.

This is why I don't eat bowls full of glass.

It's not just my opinion that eating glass is bad, it's bad by definition, that is, if the word "bad" means anything coherent.
 
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durangodawood

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Basically people are totally confused about this question because:

1. morals are felt with an internal subjective sense.

2. the reason we have the enduring morals is because of objective facts about the human species.

Objective basis. Subjective experience. Both are real.

(Things get more confusing when we examine the frontiers of evolving morality. But for the basic basics, theres an objective basis AND a subjective experience.)
 
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Kaon

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I value being free from harm.

This is why I don't eat bowls full of glass.

It's not just my opinion that eating glass is bad, it's bad by definition, that is, if the word "bad" means anything coherent.

In your school of thought, eating bowls of glass would be ludicrous. But, that is just your school of thought - for which you share in the luxury of consensus and a general security of your decisions based on several institutions and philosophies (all man-made). That it works is also an issue of circumstance and limitation - we (humans) tend to extend things that work to being right - which is a fallacy.

Eating bowls of glass may be beneficial to an X-Man mutant, or a god that feeds on crystalline silica. But, this is likely outside of your school of thought to entertain the possible reality of a mutant, or a god, or a god that feeds on silica. If your school of thought depends on the axioms of physical science and mathematics of this plane of existence - unique to human understanding, you likely cannot entertain Dormammu, Galactus or an interdimensional being with ability to consume whole galactic systems (including glass).

Humans are handicapped by logic and reason, which is why we are often surprised by the illogical and unreasonable. We don't have to be surprised at all if we can truly entertain all possibilities. Otherwise, we are projecting an extremely ignorant system of values (we call morals) that, at best, secures our species according to what we believe is ideal. In the average hands, it is dangerous to use morality as an axiom or ideal.
 
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Kaon

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Because these are foundational regarding the Redeemer:

  • 2. Do you believe the Entity known as Son of Man/The Word of the Most High is a Living Entity?
  • 4. Do you think the Entity known as the Son of Man/The Word of the Most High/Image of the Most High/Christ would be able to fully minister to someone so much so that they wouldn't need to ask anyone, "who is God"?

The Word of the Most High is a Living Entity. He is not dead, simply because He resurrected, and specifically because He defeated Death, and was before Death, and is, and will be.

If you do not think the LIVING Word of the Most High - in all of His power and might, glory and intelligence, wisdom and truth - can minister to anyone, anywhere in any situation (i.e. on a deserted island having seen no people or bible ever), then you should absolutely reconsider which god you worship. The Word of the Most High built reality as we know it; He is certainly capable of fully ministering to someone so much so that they wouldn't need to ask anyone, "who is God".
 
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Econ4every1

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But, that is just your school of thought

No, eating glass is bad for everyone not just me.

Eating bowls of glass may be beneficial to an X-Man mutant

If you have to pull a fictional character in order to make your point, it says a little about you're argument. But, let's say you are correct, assuming the x-person isn't immortal, there is probably something that could harm them in which case all we need to do is replace the glass in my example with that thing and BINGO!

If your school of thought depends on the axioms of physical science and mathematics of this plane of existence - unique to human understanding, you likely cannot entertain Dormammu, Galactus or an interdimensional being with ability to consume whole galactic systems (including glass).

Remember here, we're talking about the basis of a moral system for human beings, here, in this world. If the only argument you can come up with to invalidate my argument is to pull as yet unknown other planes of existence into the argument, then I'm going to say that your argument is pretty weak

Humans are handicapped by logic and reason, which is why we are often surprised by the illogical and unreasonable.

I'm not surprised by it, I reject it.


Do you believe the Entity known as Son of Man/The Word of the Most High is a Living Entity?

Not yet.


Do you think the Entity known as the Son of Man/The Word of the Most High/Image of the Most High/Christ would be able to fully minister to someone so much so that they wouldn't need to ask anyone, "who is God"?

Again, not yet.

then you should absolutely reconsider which god you worship.

I don't worship a god, yet.

The Word of the Most High built reality as we know it; He is certainly capable of fully ministering to someone so much so that they wouldn't need to ask anyone, "who is God".

If that's true that would be amazing, but I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that's true.
 
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