Obey

[th1bill]

[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Exo 19:5[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, serif] Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Exo 20:6[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, serif] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, serif](ASV)[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]There is only one problem with the world and noting this as the truth infuriates lost and saved alike. The world, from Adam and Eve until today has been busy rationalizing sin to make it reasonable and acceptable. This generalization is, absolutely true of everything from lying to mom and dad through murder and the Death Penalty for murdering a fellow man.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]I want to speak to this issue today but this is in no manner exclusive to the Death Penalty. Over the year I have been saved I have been verbally accosted for my position on the Death Penalty because there have, historically, been innocent men confined and it is not unreasonable to conclude that innocent men have been killed, using the proper application of the law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]That result, however does not give man warrant to disregard what God has commanded us to do. Opening this discussion are two verses from the Holy Bible and just like the one in Gen. 9:6, they do not stand alone. In oth cases they are repeated in one form or another. Gen. 9:6 is the command from God to shed the blood of the man that sheds the blood of a man.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]Using circular logic, lost man and professing man, they will demonstrate why it is not logical to obey God and to execute judgment on the murderer. This issue has nothing to do with logic, it is a clear case of disobediance, unto eternal death, verses obedience.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]God id not the Joker character in a Batman Comic Book story line, dealing with God has Eternal consequences and the world had best wake up... now![/FONT]

 

[Nord Christian]

[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Exo 19:5[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, serif] Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; [/FONT]


[FONT=Tahoma, serif]Exo 20:6[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, serif] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, serif](ASV)[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]There is only one problem with the world and noting this as the truth infuriates lost and saved alike. The world, from Adam and Eve until today has been busy rationalizing sin to make it reasonable and acceptable. This generalization is, absolutely true of everything from lying to mom and dad through murder and the Death Penalty for murdering a fellow man.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]I want to speak to this issue today but this is in no manner exclusive to the Death Penalty. Over the year I have been saved I have been verbally accosted for my position on the Death Penalty because there have, historically, been innocent men confined and it is not unreasonable to conclude that innocent men have been killed, using the proper application of the law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]That result, however does not give man warrant to disregard what God has commanded us to do. Opening this discussion are two verses from the Holy Bible and just like the one in Gen. 9:6, they do not stand alone. In oth cases they are repeated in one form or another. Gen. 9:6 is the command from God to shed the blood of the man that sheds the blood of a man.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]Using circular logic, lost man and professing man, they will demonstrate why it is not logical to obey God and to execute judgment on the murderer. This issue has nothing to do with logic, it is a clear case of disobediance, unto eternal death, verses obedience.[/FONT]


[FONT=Nimbus Sans L, sans-serif]God id not the Joker character in a Batman Comic Book story line, dealing with God has Eternal consequences and the world had best wake up... now![/FONT]

Good post, Bill. If people who are believers are dealing with sin problem, we can tell ourselves at times, that no, what I'm doing can't be that bad. There's got to be a grey area. But the truth is that sin is sin, and isn't acceptable to God, and really shouldn't be acceptable to us as followers and believers of Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm going on nearly a week of being porn free. Even when I attended church four years ago, and believed I was saved, I still tried to rationalize my addiction as something I couldn't control.

I'd gotten different answers from different people. You've got to repent from this sin or you won't be saved, to the other flip of the coin. I would be saved as long as I felt convicted of my sin, and confessed it to Lord Jesus with sincerity.

My thinking was that Jesus is savior and he understands that I can't stop, so by praying afterwards for forgiveness, he will go to the Father on my behalf, and God will forgive me. But Jesus is also "Lord" and not just our Savior. I must make a genuine, honest effort to turn away from my sin.

As it relates to the death penalty, I've heard a lot of people had been wrongly accused. Going to the chair or being hung, when innocent. And
yet still, one of the ten commandments is "Thou shall not murder". The man who pulled the switch to electrocute another man, had just committed murder. Same with the other man who tied the rope around another man
or woman's neck to hang them.

Up north here in Canada, the death penalty was abolished in the late 30's. Since then it's been a hot topic now and again. People going on about "prisoners sitting in jail, while they live on our tax money" and the like.

When we think of a heinous Canadian killer like Paul Bernardo, who taxpayers will pay to keep alive until he passes out of the physical world,
we can easily get angry at what he's done and should be punished. Still, I don't believe we have the right to take an eye for an eye.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

If you live under the old covenant, you may have a point. If you don't, I think it's not as relevant.

 

[th1bill]

Good post, Bill. If people who are believers are dealing with sin problem, we can tell ourselves at times, that no, what I'm doing can't be that bad. There's got to be a grey area. But the truth is that sin is sin, and isn't acceptable to God, and really shouldn't be acceptable to us as followers and believers of Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm going on nearly a week of being porn free. Even when I attended church four years ago, and believed I was saved, I still tried to rationalize my addiction as something I couldn't control.

I'd gotten different answers from different people. You've got to repent from this sin or you won't be saved, to the other flip of the coin. I would be saved as long as I felt convicted of my sin, and confessed it to Lord Jesus with sincerity.

My thinking was that Jesus is savior and he understands that I can't stop, so by praying afterwards for forgiveness, he will go to the Father on my behalf, and God will forgive me. But Jesus is also "Lord" and not just our Savior. I must make a genuine, honest effort to turn away from my sin.

As it relates to the death penalty, I've heard a lot of people had been wrongly accused. Going to the chair or being hung, when innocent. And
yet still, one of the ten commandments is "Thou shall not murder". The man who pulled the switch to electrocute another man, had just committed murder. Same with the other man who tied the rope around another man
or woman's neck to hang them.

Up north here in Canada, the death penalty was abolished in the late 30's. Since then it's been a hot topic now and again. People going on about "prisoners sitting in jail, while they live on our tax money" and the like.

When we think of a heinous Canadian killer like Paul Bernardo, who taxpayers will pay to keep alive until he passes out of the physical world,
we can easily get angry at what he's done and should be punished. Still, I don't believe we have the right to take an eye for an eye.

A very thoughtful reply and though we will need to agree to disagree on the Death Penalty, like you and my young pastor, I had to deal with the addiction to pornography and to use the tools God has given us to combat the urges we dealt with as Lost Men and have dragged with us in the service us. [1Cor. 10:13]

If we are to ever be more than a guest at the Wedding of the Bride [Matt. 22:1-14] to the Christ, we must learn to obey God in everything. I am certain that some think they will be and some will be satisfied to, just, be in heaven for Eternity but I do believe that we should strive for the, very, best.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[th1bill]

If you live under the old covenant, you may have a point. If you don't, I think it's not as relevant.

If we study only the Commentary on the Bible Jesus, Paul and the other Founding Fathers taught from, your case, though erroneous, can be scripturally supported. [Rom 7:1-5] However God has warned us three times in the last verse of Rev. 22 in Leviticus and one more, the address I forget, not to add nor to subtract a single word to His scriptures and Jesus, God in the flesh of a man, is the God that transmitted His Word in the Jewish Bible, the first thirty-nine books of our Christian versions, to us. [John 1:1-5] If we submit ourselves to the leading of the Spirit that indwelt us the very moment we were saved, He will use the Ten Commandments that God/Jesus, has written on our hearts [Romans 2:15 & Heb. 10:16 as they comment on Jer, 31:33] to convict us of our sins. The misnamed Law of Moses is the perfect word picture of the Messiah/Christ we are to emulate as we live the remainder of our lives. [Exo. 20] [Isa. 53]

And please do not give us, just, you opinions. There are rules in this forum that you might want to read before posting again because this subject has been shelved once because an individual chose to disregard the rules and made rash of the study so quickly it could not be cleaned and be understand able. Please remember to support you opinions with scripture, either from the Old or the New Testament.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Sure thing. Acts 15 calls the precepts of the law a burden too great to bear. Christ said His burden was light and easy, so it cannot be the same.

Galatians 3 says that the law was a tutor to lead us to where we are and now that we have the Spirit we are no longer under a tutor.

There are plenty of other examples. I know a lot of people hold on to the law, but I find that Scripture does not support this.

Anyhow, that's where I'm coming from. There are tons of "keep the law?" threads if you'd like to discuss this further. My point initially was that the OP's issue is really only relevant if keeping the law is necessary.

 

[th1bill]

Sure thing. Acts 15 calls the precepts of the law a burden too great to bear. Christ said His burden was light and easy, so it cannot be the same.

Galatians 3 says that the law was a tutor to lead us to where we are and now that we have the Spirit , what is itwe are no longer under a tutor.

There are plenty of other examples. I know a lot of people hold on to the law, but I find that Scripture does not support this.

Anyhow, that's where I'm coming from. There are tons of "keep the law?" threads if you'd like to discuss this further. My point initially was that the OP's issue is really only relevant if keeping the law is necessary.

Okay then What is it? You did not read the OP by me or are you just imitating the atheist, slinging mud at the wall to see what sticks or are you trying to shove your words into my mouth. I have said exactly nothing to pin anyone to nor under the Law unless you are calling Jesus' command that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

So, what is this neighbor, are you under the shed blood?

 

[Nord Christian]

A very thoughtful reply and though we will need to agree to disagree on the Death Penalty, like you and my young pastor, I had to deal with the addiction to pornography and to use the tools God has given us to combat the urges we dealt with as Lost Men and have dragged with us in the service us. [1Cor. 10:13]

If we are to ever be more than a guest at the Wedding of the Bride [Matt. 22:1-14] to the Christ, we must learn to obey God in everything. I am certain that some think they will be and some will be satisfied to, just, be in heaven for Eternity but I do believe that we should strive for the, very, best.

Thank you for the reply.

YVW!

If you asked me before becoming a Christian what my opinion about the death penalty, I would have said that these heinous criminals deserved to be offed. Vengeance and revenge isn't what God would want us to use against someone who'd hurt us, or someone else in the past.

I wholeheartedly agree we should strive to be as righteous as we can,
although we have to remember that It's God putting the good in us.
I know with regards to porn, I can't quit by my own will. Only through God and the Holy Spirit, can I ever hope to stop.

Lately, I'd be able to go without for a stretch of days at a time, then all of a sudden..bam! Satan will just flood my conscious mind with sexual imagery of women/ or women and men in sexual acts. I have been able with God's help been able to win some battles, here and there and not give in. I can't say I'm successful every time I'm hit with temptation. Wish I could!

I'm trying to be obedient. I fail to live in obedience all of the time though.
Negative, sinful thoughts can creep in. I like sugary and salty foods like cakes and chips, and I will sometimes eat more than I should. Another thing I've got to try and work on.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Okay then What is it? You did not read the OP by me or are you just imitating the atheist, slinging mud at the wall to see what sticks or are you trying to shove your words into my mouth. I have said exactly nothing to pin anyone to nor under the Law unless you are calling Jesus' command that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.

So, what is this neighbor, are you under the shed blood?

I don't know what you're accusing me of regarding mud. My point is that there are different covenants. Each covenant is between God and whichever peoples are under that covenant, and each has its own precepts.

I disagree that the new covenant includes the mandate to take someone who has killed and to kill them back. This was the deal for a different people and in a different time than NT gentiles.

There may be other legitimate reasons to institute a death penalty, but I do not believe that a Biblical mandate from the book of Genesis is one.

 

[th1bill]

YVW!

If you asked me before becoming a Christian what my opinion about the death penalty, I would have said that these heinous criminals deserved to be offed. Vengeance and revenge isn't what God would want us to use against someone who'd hurt us, or someone else in the past.

I wholeheartedly agree we should strive to be as righteous as we can,
although we have to remember that It's God putting the good in us.
I know with regards to porn, I can't quit by my own will. Only through God and the Holy Spirit, can I ever hope to stop.

Lately, I'd be able to go without for a stretch of days at a time, then all of a sudden..bam! Satan will just flood my conscious mind with sexual imagery of women/ or women and men in sexual acts. I have been able with God's help been able to win some battles, here and there and not give in. I can't say I'm successful every time I'm hit with temptation. Wish I could!

I'm trying to be obedient. I fail to live in obedience all of the time though.
Negative, sinful thoughts can creep in. I like sugary and salty foods like cakes and chips, and I will sometimes eat more than I should. Another thing I've got to try and work on.

Many, those not doing this, will tell you I am crazy but the answer to the issue of Porn is the same as my previous addiction to wild and constant sex. For twenty-five years I was on stage playing and singing C&W until 2am and then the Blues until 6am. I had all the 18 to 25 year old women I could handle, try breaking that one without diving, head first into your Bible seeking to know God closer.

I loved 40 year old Wild Turkey and 18 year old women. But as soon as I took the LORD as my own, He opened my Spiritual Eyes to the Scriptures by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the more I studied the less Satan could tempt me and when he does, I always have an escape because I keep the scriptures in my mind.

My very best suggestion for you is to begin reading three chapter each day. It will take a year to read through but then, just as you're sure God has shown you everything in there, start over, He will give you so many new life applications to the same verses it will, truly, amaze you and He will build a protective hedge around you.

 

[th1bill]

I don't know what you're accusing me of regarding mud. My point is that there are different covenants. Each covenant is between God and whichever peoples are under that covenant, and each has its own precepts.

I disagree that the new covenant includes the mandate to take someone who has killed and to kill them back. This was the deal for a different people and in a different time than NT gentiles.

There may be other legitimate reasons to institute a death penalty, but I do not believe that a Biblical mandate from the book of Genesis is one.

Youngster, you need to do an extensive study on Matt. 5:17. All of the Ceremonial Laws were completed on that Cross and we will never make another sacrifice that God will honor.

The Old Testament of the Christian version of the Holy Bible is the same Bible Jesus, Paul and Peter taught from making the New Testament the only God ordained, God inspired Life Application Commentary on His Bible. The Ten Commandments are not done away with as is illustrated in Heb. 10:16 when it is referencing and quoting Jer. 31:33.

If you will begin the same sort of year through the scriptures study I just suggested in my previous post you will be amazed what God will have taught you by the time of your seventieth comes around. The real Bible is not found in the New Testament and trying to find it from the back to the front is almost impossible.

Hoping you find God's blessing.

 

[JLR1300]

In the New Testament (so it is a new covenant teaching) Paul tells us the the government is God's agent to punish evil doers and He says that the government does not bear the sword in vain. This is found in Romans 13:1-4 Here is what it says...

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authority resists the ordainance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.... if you do evil be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is God's minister; an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil..."

So God uses the government to punish evil men and God has put a sword in the governments hand and the government does not bear the sword for no reason or in vain... they bear the sword to use it. And swords do not exist to tickle people... they are for killing. So the death penalty is not just an Old Covenant thing...it is a New Covenant concept. People say "what if the government accidentally kills an innocent man." God kills people every day. Some in car wrecks, some with diseases, some with cancer and heart attacks.

If God, in His Sovereignty allows the State to make a mistake and kill and innocent man that is His business. Our business is to elect the best people we can to government and do the best we can to keep the mistakes to a minimum. Do you stop driving cars simply because you as a driver might make a mistake and kill an innocent person? So why should the government quit executing evil people because there is a possibililty they might make a mistake? We never stop doing good things because a mistake might be made.

Oh, and one more thing, the guy who is pulling the switch to execute murderers is going to be rewarded by God (if he is a Christian) for being a good agent of His who is doing His will and is not bearing the sword in vain. It is always right to do God's will.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

I respect your opinion but cannot agree. Scripture does not explicitly divide the Law into categories, nor does it allow one to pick parts of the Law to discard and others to enforce. It's very clear to me that the Law is all or nothing.

Christ Himself saved from the death penalty. Why would I not endeavor for the same?