Obedience to the word of God is NOT optional -if we persist in disobedience we are not saved

[ARBITER01]

Not really.

Spirit Within - or the Indwelling - happens at new birth. That gives us power to live godly lives, moral character and at times supernatural wisdom. It is reflected in the Fruit of the Spirit.

Spirit Upon OTOH, is when the Holy Spirit comes on us to perform miracles and acts of power. That is reflected in the Gifts of the Spirit.

BTW - this is in no way connected to personal holiness or moral character; indeed, it can (rarely) happen to an unbeliever. King Saul (OT) and Caiaphas (NT) both prophesied during attempts to kill God's Anointed in their generation. (David and Jesus) The very first prophecy of a coming Messiah came from that prophet-for-hire Balaam who was trying to curse Israel.

The Assemblies of GOD teaches that The Holy Spirit filling is a secondary experience when the gifts and fruit are then given to the believer, not before that.

Let's make sure we are not teaching against our own fundamental truths.

 

[quietbloke]

The Assemblies of GOD teaches that The Holy Spirit filling is a secondary experience when the gifts and fruit are then given to the believer, not before that.

Let's make sure we are not teaching against our own fundamental truths.

The Fruit of the Spirit comes when you are born again of the Spirit of God. You begin to grow in your new nature,which is the nature of Christ. Baptism in Water is an act of obedience following conversion. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is when you are filled with the Holy Spirit and are empowered for witness. That is what I was taught in the UK Assemblies of God.

 

[ARBITER01]

The Fruit of the Spirit comes when you are born again of the Spirit of God. You begin to grow in your new nature,which is the nature of Christ. Baptism in Water is an act of obedience following conversion. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is when you are filled with the Holy Spirit and are empowered for witness. That is what I was taught in the UK Assemblies of God.

Interesting!

Here's the section of it on the fundamental truths website....

7. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit

All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ. This was the normal experience of all in the early Christian Church. With it comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry.

Luke 24:49
Acts 1:4
Acts 1:8
1 Corinthians 12:1-31

This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.

Acts 8:12-17
Acts 10:44-46
Acts 11:14-16
Acts 15:7-9

With the baptism in the Holy Spirit come such experiences as:

an overflowing fullness of the Spirit, John 7:37-39, Acts 4:8
a deepened reverence for God, Acts 2:43, Hebrews 12:28
an intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, Acts 2:42
and a more active love for Christ, for His Word and for the lost, Mark 16:20

Here we are taught the fruits and the gifts are given together when we are filled. That's interesting, I've not heard of a sort of separation of them between the birth and filling before.

 

[quietbloke]

Interesting!

Here's the se

Interesting!

Here's the section of it on the fundamental truths website....



Here we are taught the fruits and the gifts are given together when we are filled. That's interesting, I've not heard of a sort of separation of them between the birth and filling before.

Dear friend. Your fundamentals in USA are very much the same as UK. Could you have another look at it because it does not seem to me that fruit is mentioned under the baptism of the Holy Spirit but comes with the new nature of Christ that we grow in from being born again into God's family and growing in grace. Thankyou

 

[ARBITER01]

Hmmmm, didn't find it. It's interesting because I never heard that the fruits were somehow given separately from the gifts before, although there were some divergent teachings in this area in the past. Smith Wigglesworth taught that we are born again by The Holy Spirit, but we are simply a renewed spirit like Jesus, we do not have The Holy Spirit until we receive His filling, and others have taught various degrees or stages of receiving The Holy Spirit from birth.

I'll have to ask my pastor about that just to see if he has heard that before.

 

[quietbloke]

Hmmmm, didn't find it. It's interesting because I never heard that the fruits were somehow given separately from the gifts before, although there were some divergent teachings in this area in the past. Smith Wigglesworth taught that we are born again by The Holy Spirit, but we are simply a renewed spirit like Jesus, we do not have The Holy Spirit until we receive His filling, and others have taught various degrees or stages of receiving The Holy Spirit from birth.

I'll have to ask my pastor about that just to see if he has heard that before.

Dear brother,my problem is that you have quoted the Assemblies of God fundamental truths,but they do not teach what you are saying! There is no mention of fruit under the baptism of the Holy Spirit,ie. being filled with the Holy Spirit,but fruit comes from abiding in Christ and He abiding in us. The nature of Christ within. us comes when we are born again and is developed as we grow in Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

Dear brother,my problem is that you have quoted the Assemblies of God fundamental truths,but they do not teach what you are saying! There is no mention of fruit under the baptism of the Holy Spirit,ie. being filled with the Holy Spirit,but fruit comes from abiding in Christ and He abiding in us. The nature of Christ within. us comes when we are born again and is developed as we grow in Christ.

Well it is known as the fruit of The Spirit, as well, the gifts are known as the gifts of The Spirit..

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I'm not seeing the AG site state that there is a separation of when we receive each. My understanding was that they came together inside one when we received the filling of The Holy Spirit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I just find it interesting as I have never heard that before.

 

[quietbloke]

'At the New Birth,he planted in each believer the seed of the dIvine nature. As that is fed and watered by the Word of God that seed grows and matures into beautiful fruit as the nature of Christ is seen increasingly in our lives. This is the fruit of the Spirit'. (Dr. David Petts- ex Principal of Mattersey Hall AOG Bible College,UK)

 

[ARBITER01]

'At the New Birth,he planted in each believer the seed of the dIvine nature. As that is fed and watered by the Word of God that seed grows and matures into beautiful fruit as the nature of Christ is seen increasingly in our lives. This is the fruit of the Spirit'. (Dr. David Petts- ex Principal of Mattersey Hall AOG Bible College,UK)

Very interesting!

I tend to have one of those divergent views on this particular subject, and have been refraining myself to not argue against any assemblies of GOD denominational truths on this, but I wonder where in scripture he bases this on?

If you want, make another thread and we can discuss it some instead of inserting our discussion in this one.

 

[Vince53]

The problem is solved by believing Galatians 5:19-21. "
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

The new birth MUST produce a changed life. If there is no changed life, there was no new birth.

 

[Dave-W]

At the New Birth,he planted in each believer the seed of the divine nature.

Correct. That is the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Alithis. Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40:" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40 tells us:
On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7: 7-10: " Ask and you shall receive,"
then thank God and share all love and joy with loving thy neighbour as you love thyself. ( treat him, or her as you would love to be treated) God sees our loving efforts, and God will bless us. Keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with your neighbour.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again." We cease being selfish and unloving, and start being loving, caring,
and friendly always. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way. Jesus is the Way. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. Love is very catching, and we will find that people treat us the same as we treat them. Love is a Christian`s weapon, with love we can overcome all wrong behaviour. God will see that we Love and Obey God, and God will keep blessing us.
I say this with love, Alithis. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Alithis]

Dear Alithis. Jesus tells us in Matthew 22: 35-40:" The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40 tells us:
On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7: 7-10: " Ask and you shall receive,"
then thank God and share all love and joy with loving thy neighbour as you love thyself. ( treat him, or her as you would love to be treated) God sees our loving efforts, and God will bless us. Keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with your neighbour.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again." We cease being selfish and unloving, and start being loving, caring,
and friendly always. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way. Jesus is the Way. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. Love is very catching, and we will find that people treat us the same as we treat them. Love is a Christian`s weapon, with love we can overcome all wrong behaviour. God will see that we Love and Obey God, and God will keep blessing us.
I say this with love, Alithis. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

i think you say this with much sincerity and human emotion.but Godly love will not leave room for error especially if that error ,if continued in can lead to death. however i think John speaks in Godly love by inspiration of the Holy Ghost

he said "See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure.
Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.... "

none of those are my own words - and they are a continuation of everything John was saying ..so if any one wished to persist in resisting those words and implying they are not true ,they will have to take it up with the Spirit of the Lord by whose inspiration John was speaking .

Peter ,speaking by the same spirit agrees saying
-"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.---"


in a serious warning to the churches the Spirit of God spoke through John also saying
-Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you"
since it is the believers he spoke to how is it that he says if they do not repent he will come ..not for them.. but AGAINST them ?

To the galatians by the same Holy Spirit paul writes :
-But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?-reinforcing the point that once we are set free ,if we return to serving our former master of sin that it will become our master again .he says it more then one time also pointing out that "to whom you yield your body to as servants to obey ..his servant you are whom you obey .

and then Also gives this dire warning when by the Holy Spirit he writes -
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"

folks like to ignore that he is writing to the BELIEVING hebrews .. he is not writing to or of the lost .

so yet again the scripture is so very clear .. no one who professes faith in the Lord Jesus can continue to sin . if we do we show we are not yet free ,not yet born of God not yet repentant . i do not apologize for pointing out plain simple bible . for when we both HEAR and ACT upon the good news that, upon repentance -as God commands of us ,there is undeserved forgivness awaiting and a new life to abide in .. not come in and out of but ABIDE IN .. (for jesus said except we ABIDE in him we cannot bear fruit and if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off and cast into the fire which is never quenched .)


obedience to the gospel is more then simply knowing the gospel

and we also know the lord disciplines and chastises those he loves


you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?…
Cross References
Deuteronomy 8:5
Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you.

Psalm 94:12
Blessed is the one you discipline, LORD, the one you teach from your law;

Psalm 119:75
I know, LORD, that your laws are righteous, and that in faithfulness you have afflicted me.

Proverbs 3:11
My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline, and do not resent his rebuke,

Proverbs 3:12
because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.


Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

so we see from clear unambiguous scripture it is truth being presented and it is always loving to speak the truth no matter what .

 

[Alithis]

Well it is known as the fruit of The Spirit, as well, the gifts are known as the gifts of The Spirit..



I'm not seeing the AG site state that there is a separation of when we receive each. My understanding was that they came together inside one when we received the filling of The Holy Spirit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I just find it interesting as I have never heard that before.

you are correct ,in so much as you are speaking of the fruit "of the Spirit " -That is also fruit ,but it is fruit that the Holy Spirit bears ..not us .and is therefore evidence of his indwelling presence . but this is not the fruit the lord speaks of when he says a branch that does not bear fruit is cut off and cast into the fire .. for he expressly uses the term "if "you" abide in me .. not if the spirit in you abides in me .. but if YOU abide in me .so we see that in this cse it is not the fruit of the spirit he is speaking of but the fruit of YOU .

saying -“I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you.Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me."

when he told Adam and eve first in the natural-"Be fruitful and increase in number;..." no one has a problem knowing this means to have natural offspring born forth ,no one debates the simplicity of it .no one says ."ouh noo he meant go and be kind loving peaceful joyful ..ie the fruits of the spirit , NO -he meant multiply .

the same stands in the Spiritual when he tells us to bear fruit ... he means multiply .. for he tells deciles to go and make more disciples . so we see plainly see that fruit in this text is souls being saved and discipled . for when we abide in him and he in us our hearts desire becomes aligned with his desire and we begin to desire to do that which he came to do and wills to do and those that love him will always do his will ,seeking his will and kingdom first above all else . thus since what he came to do was to seek and save the lost.. we too are to seek and save the lost and the lost saved .. become disciples and THAT is fruit .

 

[Alithis]

When professing believers are confronted with uncomfortable topics -its seems a preset default reaction to start crying out oh no you have to love you have to love .
but it is the lord jesus himself ..the epitome of displayed love ,who said if you love me you will keep my commands . now we know due to clear context that he is not speaking about the mosaic law but is saying .. we must do what HE tells us to do . we must be obedient . To even begin this obedience we must first Obey the gospel -of course . it begins with believe and repent of following sin and such obedience is then outwardly displayed by obedience to the command "be baptised every one of you for the remission of sin .
if we use the mosaic command to say love the lord your God -and disobey the command to repent ..then it is impossible to be loving the lord your god .
the lord gives us a new heart -removing the heart of stone ..and he writes on that new heart his law . and thus from within the new resurrected in christ life we need no ordinance to tel us right from wrong .. we know it in our heart it is written there by the very presence of the holy Spirit within us . if we have not received the holy Spirit we have not got eternal life for he is the eternal spirit of the eternal living god .just as it is written, if we have not the spirit of christ we are not Christ's .

to say .we cannot speak truth no mater how uncomfortable to the hearer because we must love ..speaks only of a superficial fleshly love that cares only for present sensibilities .. but if we care only for present sensibilities and withhold the whole truth in order to do so, we risk damning a person to eternal fire and their blood will be on us . it is NOT loving to withhold the whole truth .. and the whole truth of the gospel..is that we must repent of sin -we must be obedient to God in this first . for our salvation depends upon our obedience to the gospel ,not just our hearing of it .

 

[Alithis]

the standard remains .. sin came about via disobedience . We cannot remain disobedient and expect to be saved ..obedience is not optional.
if the lord instructed us to do any certain thing and we refuse to do it ,knowing he has instructed us with command clearly and precisely ..then if we remain in rebellion to God.we remain at enmity with God . and except we Repent .. we will not be saved .

 

[Alithis]

it remains truth independent of any carnal minded opinion

 

[stuart lawrence]

Many, many years ago God opened my eyes to grace. For years before that I had been crushed by legalism. How happy I was not to be under law but under grace, it is hard to describe the happiness I had then
After the euphoria at my new found freedom in Christ settled down, I had choices to make, choices as to whether I would submit to what God wanted from my life, or what I wanted.
To my shame I was selfish, I let God down terribly after all he had done for me. I went out with someone God plainly showed me I should never have gone out with. I sunk very low by doing that. You cannot play with fire without getting burnt. That was 35 years ago. Yet I know God still loves me and i am still his child
So can we get away with not doing what God wants us to do, are there no reprocussions?
Because I was selfish and did what i wanted to do instead of what God wanted me to do I became miserable. I lost my peace, happiness, life just became an existence. God gave me a wife and children, he blessed me though I had treated him so badly.
But though God gave me all that i still had no true happiness or peace because God did not have first place in my life.
When my wife passed away, I still did not forsake for God what he wanted me to. I then lost my home and slept rough for a while, but God never left me. He kept me safe all that time.
Looking back on the past 36 years, I can say that my wrong choices where my faith is concerned left me miserable and unhappy.
The happiest year of my life was spent when i was twenty. At that time I was in borstal, a young persons prison. That year God was totally first in my life.
So for me, God never left me, despite the life i have often led, and me not doing what God wanted me to do. But I paid a high price for my selfishness, the price was unhappiness.
God does not have favourites. So going by my own life, I believe if you have been truly born again of the spirit, God does not forsake you. Paul tells us if we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot disown his own.
But it is not possible for one who has been truly born again to find any happiness or peace in their life when they are selfish and do what they want rather than what God wants. They suffer for it, by living an unhappy life on this earth. For no truly born again christian can find peace and happiness going against the will of God for their life.
When i was young I believed I was in danger of hell for the slightest infringement of Gods rules. When i am much older, I see how much love God has for us, even the most worthless of us.

 

[Si_monfaith]

some like to imply that the bible lies ..when it says do a certain thing they say .. o
"oh no you don't have to do that ,because their word is greater than God's word and we must follow their opinion not God
we must ignore the word of God ..
but God is not mocked and he will judge according to his own word and not peoples amended opinions

The greatest disobedience is believing that one can be saved by obeying God rather than believing that one can be saved only becz Jesus perfectly obeyed his Father-rom5:19.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Carnal? U mean to say God was carnal when he created mankind nude & expecting them to remain so forever without choosing the knowledge of gud & evil?

it remains truth independent of any carnal minded opinion