Oath Keepers leader and 10 others charged with seditious conspiracy:

[RestoreTheJoy]

How many before it counts as more than a few?
More than 20 suspected members of the Oath Keepers have been arrested, and some are facing charges of conspiracy. Now, an examination of hacked records - purportedly taken from Oath Keeper web servers - shows more defendants may have ties to the group than has been previously known.

Well I don't know. But hundreds of thousands attended a rally, a couple thousand went down to the Capitol, a lesser number entered the Capitol, and a few rioted and committed actual crimes other than "parading".

Only 11 "Oath Keepers" (whatever those are) have been arrested for seditious conspiracy per our media. Not sure where you are getting 20+ arrested for seditious conspiracy. What are "ties to"? I guess we will find out.

 

[cow451]

No, just 11 have been charged with seditious conspiracy, from what I am seeing in the latest news.

It's a desperate reach to keep this incident alive in order to overlook this disastrous year of debacles on every front, but they are trying. We shall see if these seditious conspiracy charges stick. At any rate, it was a small group of the thousands there that day to see a rally, walk to the Capitol, and the lesser group who rioted and got arrested.

It’s silly to expect all would be charged with seditious conspiracy. That’s a charge with an extremely high bar of proof. Nobody is expecting thousands to be charged at all. But there are plenty of felons in line. Unless you believe they were all just tourists.

Keeping alive investigations may offend thee but serious crimes require time in order to be thorough. You may prefer a faster pace, but possible election fraud and sedition are not to be taken lightly.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Only 11 "Oath Keepers" (whatever those are)

The "Oath Keepers" are an anti-government militia founded by a one-time congressional aid for Ron Paul. One earlier action by the "Oath Keepers" was supporting the clash of the Bundy family of ranchers against the government in 2014.

 

[Hans Blaster]

No, just 11 have been charged with seditious conspiracy, from what I am seeing in the latest news.

It's a desperate reach to keep this incident alive in order to overlook this disastrous year of debacles on every front, but they are trying. We shall see if these seditious conspiracy charges stick. At any rate, it was a small group of the thousands there that day to see a rally, walk to the Capitol, and the lesser group who rioted and got arrested.

First of all you don't know (or mischaracterize) my motives when discussing the attack on the Capitol. Quite the opposite. I am trying to prevent the shoving of the event and its import down the memory hole. This is what certain media and political actors what to happen, but I refuse.

Second, yes there are only 11 charged with seditious conspiracy, but they are part of about 2 dozen "Oathkeepers" charged in a coordinated attack on the Capitol that day. Dozens of other Oath Keepers (who have not been charged) were also there. Most of them will never be charged as most of them either committed no crimes or only entered the restricted grounds.

This pattern of nested groups of more serious violations of the law also is found in the overall crowd at the Capitol that day. If the investigations find that other groups in the crowd also conspired to prevent the transfer of presidential power (as the 11 OKers are charged), I would expect them to also be charged.

 

[rjs330]

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I'm guess there will be a lot of not guilty pleas in this. I wonder how many will end up convicted. There is quite a bit of difference between a random occurrence of opportunity for the majority of those that decided to get into the capitol and those that planned to do it and it can be proven they were planning on entering the capital and prevent Biden from becoming president.

If they really did do that. They will deserve whatever happens to them.

I maintain now and forever that those who committed those crimes on Jan 6 deserve to be prosecuted.

 

[Whyayeman]

No, just 11 have been charged with seditious conspiracy, from what I am seeing in the latest news.

It's a desperate reach to keep this incident alive in order to overlook this disastrous year of debacles on every front, but they are trying. We shall see if these seditious conspiracy charges stick. At any rate, it was a small group of the thousands there that day to see a rally, walk to the Capitol, and the lesser group who rioted and got arrested.

1 Well, eleven so far. Other arrests are anticipated, according to reports, Proud Boys among them.

2. There is nothing desperate about it. Arrests have been going on ever since last January as more and more men and women were identified, tracked down and arrested. There has been a discernible pattern of escalation in the seriousness ranging from trespass and criminal damage to violent attacks on the Capitol Police and now serious felony charges.

3. Of course the men charged with the most serious charges of organising and leading the mob are a smaller group.

4. And it is not over yet. There is emerging evidence that those charged with sedition were in contact with Trump staff.

 

[loveofourlord]

1 Well, eleven so far. Other arrests are anticipated, according to reports, Proud Boys among them.

2. There is nothing desperate about it. Arrests have been going on ever since last January as more and more men and women were identified, tracked down and arrested. There has been a discernible pattern of escalation in the seriousness ranging from trespass and criminal damage to violent attacks on the Capitol Police and now serious felony charges.

3. Of course the men charged with the most serious charges of organising and leading the mob are a smaller group.

4. And it is not over yet. There is emerging evidence that those charged with sedition were in contact with Trump staff.

well another thing is, a few of the big leaders haven't been charged, and chances are they are building up a case towards them. I think it was the guy that provided escort to roger stone hasn't been touched yet he should be so probably like I said waiting.

 

[Hans Blaster]

well another thing is, a few of the big leaders haven't been charged, and chances are they are building up a case towards them. I think it was the guy that provided escort to roger stone hasn't been touched yet he should be so probably like I said waiting.

A couple of his "security detail" that morning are among the larger group of indicted "Oath Keepers", at least one of them is in the seditious conspiracy indictment.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Court filings and public statements leading up to Jan. 6, 2021, show how important the idea of the Insurrection Act became to Rhodes and other extremists, including followers of █████, and to Trump and people close to him.

“It is hard to put into words how mind-boggling this idea was, to use a statute designed to protect the country from insurrection to support an actual insurrection,” said Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at California State University at San Bernardino.

Indictments filed in the Jan. 6 investigation show Rhodes’s followers were drawn to Washington partly in the hope that Trump would invoke the law once more, transforming the Oath Keepers into a kind of shock troop militia to smite imagined rioters, government officials and anyone who tried to make Biden’s election victory a reality.

[After Defense Secretary Esper and others in the Trump Administration advised against using the Insurrection Act] Trump didn’t let it go, declaring later that summer that he was still considering it. Other Trump supporters, like his former national security adviser Michael Flynn, issued similar calls for Trump to declare “martial law.”

“Our country’s going to change,” Trump said. “We’re not supposed to go in, unless we call it an insurrection. But you know what we’re going to do? We’re going to have to look at it.”

-

“He needs to use that now, he needs to invoke the Insurrection Act and suppress this insurrection,” Rhodes said to cheers from a crowd at a pro-Trump rally in Washington on Dec. 12.

He added, “If he does not do it now, while he is commander in chief, we are going to have to do it ourselves later, in a much more desperate, much more bloody war.”

 

[Whyayeman]

Indictments filed in the Jan. 6 investigation show Rhodes’s followers were drawn to Washington partly in the hope that Trump would invoke the law once more, transforming the Oath Keepers into a kind of shock troop militia to smite imagined rioters, government officials and anyone who tried to make Biden’s election victory a reality

I think this is precisely the fantasy of the Oath Keepers (and others) that Trump was encouraging when he spoke of walking to the Capitol; that he would be there with them and hours later, to 'stand back and standby'.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

First of all you don't know (or mischaracterize) my motives when discussing the attack on the Capitol. Quite the opposite. I am trying to prevent the shoving of the event and its import down the memory hole. This is what certain media and political actors what to happen, but I refuse.

Second, yes there are only 11 charged with seditious conspiracy, but they are part of about 2 dozen "Oathkeepers" charged in a coordinated attack on the Capitol that day. Dozens of other Oath Keepers (who have not been charged) were also there. Most of them will never be charged as most of them either committed no crimes or only entered the restricted grounds.

This pattern of nested groups of more serious violations of the law also is found in the overall crowd at the Capitol that day. If the investigations find that other groups in the crowd also conspired to prevent the transfer of presidential power (as the 11 OKers are charged), I would expect them to also be charged.

So noted. That may not be your motive, so I retract that statement.

No one should be charged who committed no crimes. On that, I hope we agree.

No one "prevented the transfer of power" or anything else. They broke in, broke windows, walked through, took video, one guy took a podium, there was some rioting and violence, and it was over in a few hours. Almost everyone was arrested.

No transfer of power was ever threatened and that is why it is not sedition.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

1 Well, eleven so far. Other arrests are anticipated, according to reports, Proud Boys among them.

2. There is nothing desperate about it. Arrests have been going on ever since last January as more and more men and women were identified, tracked down and arrested. There has been a discernible pattern of escalation in the seriousness ranging from trespass and criminal damage to violent attacks on the Capitol Police and now serious felony charges.

3. Of course the men charged with the most serious charges of organising and leading the mob are a smaller group.

4. And it is not over yet. There is emerging evidence that those charged with sedition were in contact with Trump staff.

It is clearly meant to keep January 6 in the news forever and ever so in a failing ploy to distract from all the disasters currently occurring on every front in the Biden Administration. It's been a year. It doesn't take a year to find and charge people. The resources spent on this one afternoon is insane. Did we spend a year rooting out all the BLM/Antifa criminals who commandeered areas and buildings, set buildings on fire, looted, robbed, torched cars for most of 2020?

The answer is no. In fact Harris and Waters et. al. were bailing them out as fast as they got arrested early on. And then suddenly, we just diverted from that.

Let's see how many sedition charges stick.

 

[Whyayeman]

Yes, let's.

 

[Whyayeman]

It's been a year. It doesn't take a year to find and charge people.

Sometimes it does. There are many criminal cases that have taken place long after the deed. It is not had to see why. Criminals generally do not want to be caught and are willing to obstruct justice at every turn.

The Oath Keepers case could have been settled sooner if Trump officials had been open from the start. It is quite possible that some of them will turn out to have been complicit. I will not be very surprised if some of them faces similar charges.

The law will take its own time - as it usually does.

 

[Hans Blaster]

So noted. That may not be your motive, so I retract that statement.

OK.

No one should be charged who committed no crimes. On that, I hope we agree.

Of course.

No one "prevented the transfer of power" or anything else. They broke in, broke windows, walked through, took video, one guy took a podium, there was some rioting and violence, and it was over in a few hours. Almost everyone was arrested.

This is not correct. There are some 300 persons still wanted for violence that have not been arrested. Two more arrests were announced today.

No transfer of power was ever threatened and that is why it is not sedition.

Actually that is *precisely* what the DOJ alleges in the indictment that is the subject of this thread;

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download

paragraph 16 (page 8):

"The purpose of the conspiracy was to oppose the lawful transfer of presidential power by force, by preventing, hindering, or delaying by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of power, including the Twelfth and Twentieth Amendments to the Constitution and Title 3, Section 15 of the United States Code."

It is now up to the government to prove this in court.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It's astonishing that anyone should assert that all the arrests that might occur should occur already. Who was that billionaire who died that committed murder some 40+ years ago (Durst). Killed more than one, he did. They finally got a conviction but he died before any kind of sentence could be carried out. (We still don't *know* who killed Natalie Wood. Ya think they won't bring charges if new evidence arises?!?!)

My daughter was sexually abused by her pastor. This was reported going on 2 years ago. The investigators ensured that this was a slam dunk. So 2 years on, we don't know if nothing will be done or if something is yet to be done.

So, there are, what?, some 1000+, 2000+ rioters that breached the capitol last year. And we are amazed that there have been only only only only!!! 700 some indictments?!?!?! After only! 1 year?!?!

Please.


ETA: Post 10,000. It only took 20 years.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Actually that is *precisely* what the DOJ alleges in the indictment that is the subject of this thread;

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download

paragraph 16 (page 8):

"The purpose of the conspiracy was to oppose the lawful transfer of presidential power by force, by preventing, hindering, or delaying by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of power, including the Twelfth and Twentieth Amendments to the Constitution and Title 3, Section 15 of the United States Code."

It is now up to the government to prove this in court.

Well, of course it does. The BIDEN DOJ is deflecting to January 6 nonstop, because Biden is in trouble.

There was NO threat to power being transferred. There were simply upset, mostly middle aged people (with a sprinkling of some odd black garbed young people, who dressed like the antifa rioters - they caught at least one, John Sullivan (bet his case went away but I haven't seen anything on it since).

No one there in the Capitol tried or had any ability or authority to prevent the transfer of power. Talking about what you'd LIKE to see happen is not conspiracy.

We all saw the videos and saw what the people who went actually did. Most were dumb enough to post it online.

You are right. The DOJ has to bring the goods now to back up these extreme assertions. I'm going to guess that will not be successful, but who knows...we shall see.

 

[wing2000]

Well, of course it does. The BIDEN DOJ is deflecting to January 6 nonstop, because Biden is in trouble.

There was NO threat to power being transferred. There were simply upset, mostly middle aged people (with a sprinkling of some odd black garbed young people, who dressed like the antifa rioters - they caught at least one, John Sullivan (bet his case went away but I haven't seen anything on it since).

No one there in the Capitol tried or had any ability or authority to prevent the transfer of power. Talking about what you'd LIKE to see happen is not conspiracy.

We all saw the videos and saw what the people who went actually did. Most were dumb enough to post it online.

You are right. The DOJ has to bring the goods now to back up these extreme assertions. I'm going to guess that will not be successful, but who knows...we shall see.

I am no lawyer, but I submit here is nothing "extreme" with the DOJ's interpretation of the law. The code is clear.

"The purpose of the conspiracy was to oppose the lawful transfer of presidential power by force, by preventing, hindering, or delaying by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of power, including the Twelfth and Twentieth Amendments to the Constitution and Title 3, Section 15 of the United States Code."

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

I am no lawyer, but I submit here is nothing "extreme" with the DOJ's interpretation of the law. The code is clear.

"The purpose of the conspiracy was to oppose the lawful transfer of presidential power by force, by preventing, hindering, or delaying by force the execution of the laws governing the transfer of power, including the Twelfth and Twentieth Amendments to the Constitution and Title 3, Section 15 of the United States Code."

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

From an NBC outlet, in lay language.

"Seditious conspiracy occurs when two or more people in the U.S. conspire to “overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force” the U.S. government, or to levy war against it, or to oppose by force and try to prevent the execution of any law. If convicted, it's 20 years behind bars.

But that Civil War-era charge is rarely ever used, because it's hard to prove and harder to win.

Still, prosecutors filed seditious conspiracy charges Thursday against the leader of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group and 10 suspected associates.

The last such case was filed in 2010 against members of a Michigan militia, but two years later they were acquitted by a judge who said their hateful diatribes didn't prove they ever had detailed plans for a rebellion."

 

[wing2000]

From an NBC outlet, in lay language.

"Seditious conspiracy occurs when two or more people in the U.S. conspire to “overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force” the U.S. government, or to levy war against it, or to oppose by force and try to prevent the execution of any law. If convicted, it's 20 years behind bars.

But that Civil War-era charge is rarely ever used, because it's hard to prove and harder to win.

Still, prosecutors filed seditious conspiracy charges Thursday against the leader of the far-right Oath Keepers militia group and 10 suspected associates.

The last such case was filed in 2010 against members of a Michigan militia, but two years later they were acquitted by a judge who said their hateful diatribes didn't prove they ever had detailed plans for a rebellion."

...sure, it's rarely used.

You know what else is rare? American citizens using force to lay siege to the US Capitol building and "prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States"