Numbers chapter 15 verses 32- 38

[thedream233]

sorry about the title, its actually 32-36


And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness,
[SIZE=+0]they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:33[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and unto all the congregation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:34[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they put him in ward,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:35[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And the LORD said unto Moses,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The man shall be surely put to death:[SIZE=+0] (# EXO 20:8-11 16:29-30 # NUM 15:15-16 # ISA 56:6-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:36[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]And all the congregation brought him without the camp,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and stoned him with stones, and he died;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]as the LORD commanded Moses.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]





[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]In all honesty, this is what ended my faith in christianity.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Can somone please tell me why this was just? Weren't they doing work by arresting the man?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[TimmyPage]

It wasn't just imo, but I'm not really big on the Bible.

But.. Erm.. I suppose it wasn't 'work' because they were still honouring the Lord, (what you're supposed to do on the sabbath) doing his direct command?

 

[thedream233]

dont all chime in at once...

 

[Adstar]

sorry about the title, its actually 32-36


And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness,
[SIZE=+0]they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:33[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and unto all the congregation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:34[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they put him in ward,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:35[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And the LORD said unto Moses,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The man shall be surely put to death:[SIZE=+0] (# EXO 20:8-11 16:29-30 # NUM 15:15-16 # ISA 56:6-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:36[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]And all the congregation brought him without the camp,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and stoned him with stones, and he died;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]as the LORD commanded Moses.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]





[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]In all honesty, this is what ended my faith in christianity.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Can somone please tell me why this was just? Weren't they doing work by arresting the man?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Really... it was this incident that caused you to reject the Messiah Jesus as your Savior???

The Man was openly rebelling against the expressed will of God. He was in defiance of a clear rule established by God not to work on the Sabbath. It does not matter what He was doing He was executed because he was opposing God.

Obviously arresting a breaker of the law was not against the Law of God otherwise those who arrested him would also have been stoned.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Zeena]

sorry about the title, its actually 32-36


And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness,
[SIZE=+0]they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:33[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and unto all the congregation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:34[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they put him in ward,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:35[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And the LORD said unto Moses,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The man shall be surely put to death:[SIZE=+0] (# EXO 20:8-11 16:29-30 # NUM 15:15-16 # ISA 56:6-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:36[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]And all the congregation brought him without the camp,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and stoned him with stones, and he died;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]as the LORD commanded Moses.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]





[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]In all honesty, this is what ended my faith in christianity.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Can somone please tell me why this was just? Weren't they doing work by arresting the man?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Psalm 119:75
I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.

To be quite frank, it's ONLY the Life of Jesus that is WORTHY of Living! For He is the Living Word! He is the Life!

To take life into ones own hands is sin!

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

In the OT, the Sabaoth is declared a day of REST by God, to take one's life into ones own hands, when God has clearly said, let me do it for you, is to put yourself above God!

Jeremiah 10:23
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

In the NEW Testament, every day is declared a day of rest in Christ Jesus, our Lord!

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

[Robinsegg]

Remember, this was the beginning of a country under the ultimate theocracy. This has little to do with Christianity (it's good history to know), and everything to do with how the laws of that country were set up and how the picture of that country was to help us understand our relationship to Him now.

I agree with the others: this man was openly defying God (which is expressly and harshly forbidden in a theocracy).
Rachel

 

[ebia]

sorry about the title, its actually 32-36


And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness,
[SIZE=+0]they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:33[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and unto all the congregation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:34[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they put him in ward,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:35[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And the LORD said unto Moses,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The man shall be surely put to death:[SIZE=+0] (# EXO 20:8-11 16:29-30 # NUM 15:15-16 # ISA 56:6-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:36[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]And all the congregation brought him without the camp,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and stoned him with stones, and he died;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]as the LORD commanded Moses.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]





[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]In all honesty, this is what ended my faith in christianity.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Can somone please tell me why this was just? Weren't they doing work by arresting the man?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Numbers is an account of people still in the early stages of trying to get to grips with what God wants of them. That process is messy, like any process of learning.

If a passage like this occured in, say, Acts, it would be a problem, but in Numbers it simple reflects where the people are at at the time, (and incidentally the impossibility of constructing a complete and consistant set of Laws).

 

[thedream233]

but did this man know about the sabbath law? It said the isrealites were in the wilderness and FOUND him gathering sticks. Doesn't this mean the man was not an Isrealite?

 

[Adstar]

but did this man know about the sabbath law? It said the isrealites were in the wilderness and FOUND him gathering sticks. Doesn't this mean the man was not an Isrealite?

The Law was pertaining to the Jews. This man was a Hebrew. This happened when they where travelling in the wilderness and had not come into the land of Israel. This was very early after the establishment of the Law and Moses read the Law out in the presence of all the people so they all knew where they stood.

Deuteronomy 31
9 So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel. 10 And Moses commanded them, saying: “At the end of every seven years, at the appointed time in the year of release, at the Feast of Tabernacles, 11 when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

The Jews did have laws pertaining to gentile travellers when they established the nation of Israel but these never included all the laws pertaining to the Jews themselves.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ebia]

but did this man know about the sabbath law? It said the isrealites were in the wilderness and FOUND him gathering sticks. Doesn't this mean the man was not an Isrealite?

Who was this question addressed to?

 

[hlaltimus]

sorry about the title, its actually 32-36


And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness,
[SIZE=+0]they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:33[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and unto all the congregation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:34[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they put him in ward,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:35[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And the LORD said unto Moses,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The man shall be surely put to death:[SIZE=+0] (# EXO 20:8-11 16:29-30 # NUM 15:15-16 # ISA 56:6-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:36[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]And all the congregation brought him without the camp,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and stoned him with stones, and he died;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]as the LORD commanded Moses.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]





[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]In all honesty, this is what ended my faith in christianity.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Can somone please tell me why this was just? Weren't they doing work by arresting the man?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Hi, God must either perfectly or imperfectly keep His promises, and in this case it would have seemed to have been the more merciful thing to imperfectly enforce them, only we would be wrong if we so thought.
If God has likewise promised to be my Provider, Redeemer, Sustainer, Guide, Defender and future Advocate in eternal judgment, would I then prefer a Being who imperfectly or perfectly kept His promise? The perfections of the Almighty One work for the better or for the worse for which ever fate we force upon ourselves.

 

[Fortuna]

sorry about the title, its actually 32-36


And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness,
[SIZE=+0]they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:33[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and unto all the congregation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:34[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And they put him in ward,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]NUM 15:35[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]And the LORD said unto Moses,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The man shall be surely put to death:[SIZE=+0] (# EXO 20:8-11 16:29-30 # NUM 15:15-16 # ISA 56:6-8)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]NUM 15:36[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]And all the congregation brought him without the camp,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]and stoned him with stones, and he died;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]as the LORD commanded Moses.[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]





[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]In all honesty, this is what ended my faith in christianity.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Can somone please tell me why this was just? Weren't they doing work by arresting the man?[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Hi!
I agree with another poster that mentioned that it is good to study the history of that period which includes the customs and laws of the Jews.

The man gathering sticks was selfishly only thinking of his wants, in the Jewish way of thinking, to my understanding, is that he could have brought the wrath of God down upon his people. He was acting outside the unity of his people a very non-Jewish thing to do in those days, IMHO. If he had gone to the elders, they may have been able to help him so that he would not have broken the law. We don't know exactly what kept him from doing so, pride? rebelliousness? arrogance?

If this person would not follow God's law, what other laws would he break that the others might have to pay for or suffer for in some way that lived in the group? Life was very tenuous and the Jews could not afford to anger God for any reason or take the chance someone might commit a more serious crime. The good of the whole had to be considered. (Outweighs the good of the one) this is so Spock.

This may have not been this person's first offense either, I don't think scripture is clear on this.

The people did as the Lord commanded whose authority and wisdom surpasses our own.

I would certainly not let anything from the bible and particularly the OT lead me away from Jesus. I am sure as sinners, we can always find an excuse to rebel against God or leave his church.

For this reason, I think bible study is so important and going to church regularly where all these questions can be answered by clergy. Did you take your question about this to clergy? If not, are you not somewhat like the man gathering sticks?

Just my take on it, I think it was a very good question and wish you the best.

Blessings, Fortuna

 

[thedream233]

okay... so according to the answers I got...

even though the bible doesn't say who the man was or his intentions...

the man was a rebel openly defying God's law of the sabbath. And because God was so strict under the old covanent (sp?) The man had to be brutally punished.


and When Jesus said "the sabbath was made for man" he wasn't clearing up the law, he was changing it.

 

[Zeena]

Not changing it, for THAT law died with Christ!
He established a NEW covanant
And writ it on our hearts!

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

JESUS' HEART!

 

[plmarquette]

Only 6 days shall you labor(for wages ) and the 7th you shall praise & worship God and rest ...

1. do you like working for some one 7 days a week ?
2. isn't it nice to have 1 day to sleep in , kick back , and recharge ?
3. they were not the 10 suggestions , but the 10 commandments ... people knew if they broke them , they were in danger of death ... they , not God are to blame
4. we now are in the dispensation of grace ... there is time to get right , repent , regroup, and return to God prior to the judgement for our sins

When the Law was given them , they were totally dependant upon God for food , water , and shelter ... all he asked is that they watched their attitude and did what he asked on the Sabbath ...[ do you have kids? do you understand the parallel ?]

This is the Old Covenant , under the Law , which was quite severe , but the Law of the Egyptians , to the Hebrew slaves , was also quite severe too , wasn't it ?

 

[katealpha]

The Christian sabbath is not the same as the Jewish sabbath of the old Testament. Christ himself freed us from the strictness of the Jewish law, when he said that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

From New Advent Encyclopedia:
He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day.

 

[Rafael]

Gathering sticks in itself is not wrong. It could be for the purpose of providing a fire for warmth of cooking. The problem is that a man was deliberately and flagrantly gathering sticks in the open on the Sabbath day when God had commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath. This was a direct challenge to God's authority.
"Therefore you are to observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people," (Exodus 31:14).
Apparently, this was the first public offense against the newly revealed law of God. It was, essentially, being tested. Therefore, the severity of the punishment was to demonstrate to all of Israel the necessity of obeying the Law of God.
The Old Testament law was given in truth so that people would know right from wrong and the realities and consequences of sin which is death - to see it and what it produces as stark and horrible as possible. The New Testament law shows Gods fulfillment in Christ and His grace, but still judgment comes to those that do not show true repentence of sin. Whether deferred or immediate, judgment comes to all people. The blood of Jesus and a person's testimony that they have not given in to the sin of their flesh and evil keeps the Christian as an overcomer, but God is not mocked by us pretending, either, as what a person sows in life they shall surely reap and be found out.
Another thing to consider is that nothing is lost to God even though it appears dead and gone to us. He has the power of life and death, and His mercies we cannot limit to even the dead, IMO, and we should always trust God to do what is perfect in justice. Jesus told us to not fear the first feath, but the second one.
Like the laws today, they are to be interpreted to each situation, and I doubt that for each time the sabbath was broken in the Old Testament people were stoned to death, but they knew that what they did was worthy of death... Are we aware of the sinful natures we possess ad the death we spread with our own selfishness and pride? How many die each day because blind eyes are turned to the poor and needy of the world while others live on the fat of the land, throwing away what would sustain life in others?