Numbers 23:19: Big Problem

[disciple Clint]

Try not to get to hung up on who is/was first, second, or last, or whatever, etc, because in the end, all three will be co-equal, and co-eternal, and one, etc...

You may also want to see my posts in the other thread I linked here as well, so I don't have to be repeating myself maybe, etc...

Jesus claimed to be showing us the always number one and very always most highest "Father God", etc, and that God, goes even beyond God the Spirit, etc, or at least, did in and at and from the start, etc, again, see what I linked, and read them first before I say anything more, OK, etc...



Misunderstanding is common, but as for what you just said, yes, I purposely chose to leave that part out for the moment, didn't want to add to the "misunderstandings" or confusion, etc, there is enough there as it is, etc, but God in the OT did temporarily indwell people at certain times, and I think it might have been "in the moment" maybe, etc, but I chose to leave that part out for now on purpose, and for that I do apologize...

I thought about trying to say something about it, but then reconsidered and left it out for now, as the most important thing to me in that post was, well, discussing what I discussed, and also the now new way that started with Jesus Christ primarily, and how that came to be/happened, or came to be, and how it is still supposed to be now with the rest of us now, etc...

So, sorry about that, etc...

And I also wanted to discuss how the Spirit is God's power also, etc, and always was also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Try not to get to hung up on who is/was first, second, or last, or whatever, etc, because in the end, all three will be co-equal, and co-eternal, and one, etc...

While they indeed are co-equal and co-eternal they are three people, each one has its own purpose and relationship to the others as indicate in the Economic Trinity, you just cannot use one interchangeably with one of the others they are separate persons but one essence. What is your understanding of the prologue to John? I do not want to get into reviewing your other posts until we get to an understanding on this one.

 

[Neogaia777]

While they indeed are co-equal and co-eternal they are three people, each one has its own purpose and relationship to the others as indicate in the Economic Trinity, you just cannot use one interchangeably with one of the others they are separate persons but one essence. What is your understanding of the prologue to John? I do not want to get into reviewing your other posts until we get to an understanding on this one.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, etc...? Is that what you are talking about, etc...?

Well, right now, and for the record, I would just like to state that "I believe the entire Bible", and not just pieces and parts of it, like some of you do, etc, and secondly, you want to ask me questions about whatever you choose to pose, and expect me to answer them, without even taking the time to review a few simple posts about what I have already stated about what I believe, and have already said, etc???

Sorry, but I don't wish to play that game right now, I am just simply too busy, and already preoccupied, etc...

But if you do want to look into some of the other things I have already stated and/or said, etc, and ask me some questions about some of those, then I will do my very best to try and answer, but right now, I'm not playing anybody's "games", etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, etc...? Is that what you are talking about, etc...?

Well, right now, and for the record, I would just like to state that "I believe the entire Bible", and not just pieces and parts of it, like some of you do, etc, and secondly, you want to ask me questions about whatever you choose to pose, and expect me to answer them, without even taking the time to review a few simple posts about what I have already stated about what I believe, and have already said, etc???

Sorry, but I don't wish to play that game right now, I am just simply too busy, and already preoccupied, etc...

But if you do want to look into some of the other things I have already stated and/or said, etc, and ask me some questions about some of those, then I will do my very best to try and answer, but right now, I'm not playing anybody's "games", etc...

God Bless!

@disciple Clint

I am only wanting to talk with those who are only genuinely interested in what I have already said right now, and you are letting me know right now, right off the bat, that you are not genuinely truly one of them, and so, no offense, but I just don't care right now, etc...

Go play those games with others, and maybe they'll be your huckleberry, etc...

Cause I'm just not up for it right now, etc...

God Bless!

 

[disciple Clint]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, etc...? Is that what you are talking about, etc...?

Well, right now, and for the record, I would just like to state that "I believe the entire Bible", and not just pieces and parts of it, like some of you do, etc, and secondly, you want to ask me questions about whatever you choose to pose, and expect me to answer them, without even taking the time to review a few simple posts about what I have already stated about what I believe, and have already said, etc???

Sorry, but I don't wish to play that game right now, I am just simply too busy, and already preoccupied, etc...

But if you do want to look into some of the other things I have already stated and/or said, etc, and ask me some questions about some of those, then I will do my very best to try and answer, but right now, I'm not playing anybody's "games", etc...

God Bless!

OK I am not playing games, I take Theology very seriously, I am trying to help you because unless you have a very unorthodox Theology that you are trying to teach you are going to confuse people by what you are posting.

 

[Neogaia777]

OK I am not playing games, I take Theology very seriously, I am trying to help you because unless you have a very unorthodox Theology that you are trying to teach you are going to confuse people by what you are posting.

God Bless.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

No He did not. If you read the Gospel you will see Him using His divine powers several times to prove that in fact He is God. He humbled Himself but He gave up nothing. He was 100% God and 100% man. God does not change His powers.

Nobody said He changed his powers. It says He humbled himself and became as a servant, mainly, so He could die. Otherwise He would have never died.

 

[ChetSinger]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

The incarnation hadn't yet happened. The Word had not yet been made flesh. So Balaam was correct when he said this.

 

[ChetSinger]

What about in the old Testament when he put Moses in the cleft of a rock and walked past him? Surely God the Father was in human form, walking past the cleft on two legs, with moses observing the back of his head and frame. Surely God had a human body at this time, so why conclude that the Father is not also human?

In the Hebrew scriptures God manifests in various physical forms, including that of a man (as in Genesis 18). In Judaism such manifestations were called his Word. We say the same, but also identify that Word as the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[friend of]

The incarnation hadn't yet happened. The Word had not yet been made flesh. So Balaam was correct when he said this.

It seems like you only read half my post then.

 

[ChetSinger]

It seems like you only read half my post then.

You're right, I didn't address that.

John says the Word "became" flesh, not that he was always flesh. This is the miracle of the incarnation. He became flesh when he became the son of Mary. She is where his flesh came from and she is how Jesus is simultaneously the Word of God and also a member of the human race. There is no dilemma in Number 23:19 because it was spoken prior to the birth of Jesus the son of Mary.

 

[friend of]

You're right, I didn't address that.

John says the Word "became" flesh, not that he was always flesh. This is the miracle of the incarnation. He became flesh when he became the son of Mary. She is where his flesh came from and she is how Jesus is simultaneously the Word of God and also a member of the human race. There is no dilemma in Number 23:19 because it was spoken prior to the birth of Jesus the son of Mary.

Okay thank you.

 

[disciple Clint]

Nobody said He changed his powers. It says He humbled himself and became as a servant, mainly, so He could die. Otherwise He would have never died.

Guess I did not understand your post when you said:
SavedByGrace3 said: ↑
The Word became flesh after He emptied Himself of certain divine attributes and rights so He could become a human, humbled even to death.

 

[Clare73]

Numbers 23:19
English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?
—
First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God.

Man and God-Man are not the same thing.

For starters, man's nature is fallen, corrupt.
Jesus' nature was perfect in righteous, holiness and knowledge of God, and he did not sin it away as did Adam.

He had to be perfect to qualify as our atoning sacrifice.

Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

Basically and firstly, the entire scriptures need read.
At the time The Lord spoke through Balaam but Balak didnt like it.
He wanted his foes cursed but Balaam said the Lord was blessing them.
So he moved to another site to get Balaam to have the Lord curse Jacob but thats when He said...
'I'm not gonna change my mind and I dont lie because Im not as a human would do...'

No where does He say He 'would never become human...'

Context.
And as human, He still did not lie as humans do. His ways are not like human ways.
Thus He was the perfect sacrifice.